He did the math

[UltArc]

Originally Posted by Fat Charlie

Sorry about any confusion- there's no agenda here and he didn't want VW to work on his car. He didn't need any repairs. He was just coming up on a service and talked, one tech to another, about how they do the service over there and what parts he should get (Just a flush? Filter?). They talked about things the car would need in the future. The only one he mentioned to me was the DPF replacement at 120k, but I really don't think that alone would steer him away from the car (we also know that it probably won't need replacing then...). A non serviceable automatic would scare the hell out of a transmission tech.

I'm not disparaging Volkswagen here. I was just so shocked that someone would move from a TDI to a 200 (and get the the 6 instead of the 4) that I had to share- and this isn't a "I want more ____ in my car" situation. This is a guy who believes in preventative maintenance and it's his wife's car. Looking at the DPF alone, he'd rather replace it when the book recommends than wait for her to mention that her car's been running badly for a while and then have to diagnose the VW in his spare time. He doesn't like DPFs, or explaining to his own customers that they need to be replaced. Having an expense like that looming is never fun, and neither is trying to sell a car with over 100k that has expensive stuff in its immediate future- and trying to trade one in when it has the "replace DPF" light on is a great way to take a bath.

If I already owned a TDI I'd keep it and milk the fuel savings. To him, cashing in on the VW's resale value while it's still young and getting a replacement that the dealership is happy to get rid of ahead of the 2014s is probably a good move.

But for this one guy:
-The VW gets much better mileage than the 200, but...
-A standard, known service on the VW costs a lot no matter who you are.
-A dealership tech can keep a car from his brand in top shape without even trying for just the price of parts, and we take care of him.
-It's all the same to his wife what she drives.
His math said to get out from under the VW while the getting was good, into a platform he knows to be reliable. He probably got a service contract for less than a DPF would cost him- so not only will just about everything be covered, but he'll get paid to do the work instead of the other way around.

So while it just looks wrong, it made sense for him.

I see your point entirely except- why a chrysler? Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Ford, and Subaru all make products at a comparable price with better fuel economy, reliability, and often power ( I don't know about the 6, but the 4 cylinder is underpowered and inefficient, so I imagine the 6 is similar.). The ONLY factor I could imagine, is that she wanted a convertible. Which, I have learned from experience, a convertible to many women is much more important than things like efficiency, quality, or price.

(I recently spent some time at a Hyundai/chrysler dealership, and although Hyundai continued to disappoint me with their Genesis (still heavy, under powered, and extremely inefficient for how little power it has), but the Elantra was nice, and the Velositer blew my mind. For the price, it is actually head to head with my current favorite FF- the CRZ. I was astounded, as in the past I have not experienced good things[with them], but the standard Elantra GT I drove, and the auto Velositer were very decent, and very nice, respectively. The chrysler side continued to disappoint me, the challenger, 300, and 200 made no sense and have barely evolved it at all- although I the Dart is seems decent. No standard drives, but it seemed alright. I've never driven it, so I could not comment on anything but aesthetics, visibility, and immediate interior quality.)

[user removed]

A brand new Toyota that needed the frame twisted to get the wheel alignment in specs (my 2006 Corolla and it's not the only one that ate up front tires from brand new with 6 miles)?

How about a brand new Honda that had an open circuit in the right door speaker, factory wiring (84 CRX 1.5)?

I used to love Chrysler in the 1960s when they built cars that would stand up to anything made on the planet (I know. I flew one 60 feet in the air and it did not even knock it out of alignment). Then the US big 3 went to crap as the unions held their production lines for ransom, and SABOTAGED cars intentionally. They almost buried the "BIG" 3. Meanwhile the Japanese using manufacturing techniques taught by Doug MacArthur and a virtually ethnically pure society, passed us like we were recovering from a week long drunk.

I find it funny comparing my 1997 Ford Ranger to a Toyota truck. Toyota touted their fully boxed frames while Ford had the old C channel and twin I beams.

Toyotas frames rusted out until they broke in half. No such problem with the Ranger. No rattling timing chain either.

Amazing how many Hondas last very long, just not on the original engine. At least Toyota made them so when the timing belt broke, the valves didn't launch themselves into the piston tops. Design a car so if the timing belt brakes the engine is wrecked?
I think they are still doing that. If Detroit tried it they would be crucified. Toyota wised up in that category.

The wife drives a Kia Sorento, and we have had absolutely not a single problem with it. She makes the money. She wanted a "SUV". Anyone who thinks I sould try to make her drive something she does not want, either has never been married, or is divorced.

"He did the Math", and the math said trade the car. Maybe the most important part of that "Math" was a happy wife and that is all that really matters, at least to those of us who have figured out how to stay married for over two decades.

She got a new car with a nice long warranty, precisely what my wife has. If it blows up, they replace it and give her a loaner car if they try to fix it. 6-60 towing and a 10-100 powertrain warranty. If she wants that peace of mind and is willing to pay for it, then by GOD, she will have it.

regards
Mech

[tjts1]

I wouldn't be surprised if a Ford Raptor was cheaper to run than your typical VW. They're all rolling trash heaps.

He bought the Chrysler 200 V6 because it has 286hp. As far as straight line speed goes, its a hell of a bargain at $20k.

[UltArc]

Originally Posted by tjts1

I wouldn't be surprised if a Ford Raptor was cheaper to run than your typical VW. They're all rolling trash heaps.

He bought the Chrysler 200 V6 because it has 286hp. As far as straight line speed goes, its a hell of a bargain at $20k.

MSRP is 22k, but it doesn't SEEM like there is anything else in that range- as in, within 10% of the power and 10% of the price- I don't have the urge to check weight/power ratios. A Camaro and Mustang each have more power and better fuel economy, but they are not four doors.

[wdb]

I don't want to derail this thread so I'm snipping most of rant.

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic

Meanwhile the Japanese using manufacturing techniques taught by Doug MacArthur

It was W. Edwards Deming who taught statistical quality control methods to the Japanese. He tried to teach the Americans first, but the leadership at those companies were still drunk on war profits and ignored him.

and a virtually ethnically pure society,

Sorry, couldn't resist leaving that hanging a bit more out in the breeze.

[Fat Charlie]

He's a Chrysler tech at a Chrysler dealer. That's how the maintenance side made the Chrysler so attractive. I wasn't promoting the 200 as anything great- I was holding it up as an example of how other factors could make even one of those more attractive than something that gets amazing mileage.

[RedDevil]

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic

Amazing how many Hondas last very long, just not on the original engine. At least Toyota made them so when the timing belt broke, the valves didn't launch themselves into the piston tops. Design a car so if the timing belt brakes the engine is wrecked?
I think they are still doing that. If Detroit tried it they would be crucified. Toyota wised up in that category.

I've heard of several cars being neglected by their owners (or their dealerships: short servicing while full billing ) fail from timing belt failure. None of them had no valve damage, most were junked. It is not a specific Honda problem nor is Toyota free from it.

AFAIK any 4+ cylinder engine has at least one open valve at any time during normal operation, so that if the timing belt/chain/whatever alignment fails it is inevitable that valves get hit, unless there is some mechanism to physically close them (lift the camshaft?) right when the belt tension drops.
That mechanism would make the engine slightly heavier, more expensive and less efficient, just to cure a problem that should not have happened in the first place, were the belt changed at the proper service interval.

My '85 Civic did 280,000 km in 18.5 years with no mechanical trouble whatsoever apart from from a broken starter motor mount(!). Its original engine still ran like new when it failed the MOT because of structural weakness in its rustbeams.
My ST11000 Pan European bike runs fine at 75,000 km, just like the Pans of other Pan club members, some beyond 300.000 km.
I see Honda engines get high mileage with grace, provided they do get their regular services.

[tjts1]

Originally Posted by UltArc

MSRP is 22k, but it doesn't SEEM like there is anything else in that range- as in, within 10% of the power and 10% of the price- I don't have the urge to check weight/power ratios. A Camaro and Mustang each have more power and better fuel economy, but they are not four doors.

Dealers are discounting the to $20k and in the process killing Dart sales.
Analysis: Why Buy A Dart When You Can Buy An Avenger? | The Truth About Cars

[wdb]

Originally Posted by RedDevil

AFAIK any 4+ cylinder engine has at least one open valve at any time during normal operation, so that if the timing belt/chain/whatever alignment fails it is inevitable that valves get hit, unless there is some mechanism to physically close them (lift the camshaft?) right when the belt tension drops.

There are engines in which the valves and the pistons never touch, even if the valves are wide open when the pistons reach top dead center. If a valvetrain failure were to occur on one of these engines, no valves would be bent nor pistons damaged.

Then there are engines where the valves and pistons occupy the same space at (hopefully) different times. In these engines, valvetrain failure can result in bent and dented stuff.

Interference engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You're quite right about interference engines being much more common than just Honda. Lots of manufacturers build them.

[user removed]

Originally Posted by wdb

I don't want to derail this thread so I'm snipping most of rant.
It was W. Edwards Deming who taught statistical quality control methods to the Japanese. He tried to teach the Americans first, but the leadership at those companies were still drunk on war profits and ignored him.
Sorry, couldn't resist leaving that hanging a bit more out in the breeze.

Mr. Deming operated under the authority of MacArthur, at least in his early years, like the Secretary of Commerce operates under the authority of the President.

If you can, provide a single example of a Japanese goverment representative or other official position after the end of the occupation, post WW2, who was not a native of Japan.

If you want to "hang" the obvious in the breeze, the consequences will be obvious.

regards
Mech