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Old 02-08-2011, 11:32 PM   #11 (permalink)
UFO
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Originally Posted by Allch Chcar View Post
Water and Hydrogen injection into the intake manifold has been shown to improve FE which is essentially all that the electrolyzers accomplish. The only scam about HHO is the people selling them for more than the $5-$20 in parts and claiming they improve your FE by more than 10%.

If you need a 2 stroke ICE to run off of water you would be better off starting with something that is already on a 2 stroke cycle.

And welcome to Ecomodder!
Really? I thought it was all a scam. Can you document this? It's strangely lacking.

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Old 02-09-2011, 07:12 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Really? I thought it was all a scam. Can you document this? It's strangely lacking.
The scam is usually in the way it is presented... and some of the things that are conveniently forgotten about how it works... and how it does not work.

The short version ... there is no conspiracy ... Hydrogen ICE and Hydrogen Injection have been done for decades ... and is well understood ... and there are good reasons why we do not see it being used in modern engines.

Short ~29 page over view of different Hydrogen combustion methods in ICE :

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogen...fs/fcm03r0.pdf

The short answer is that Hydrogen injection can help support leaner A/F ratios in a gasoline engine ... which will improve fuel economy ... but will reduce power.

The water injection is a crude application of the 6 stroke engine ... where liquid water uses some of the waste heat to produce steam ... thus producing a slight cooling effect ... and converting a small fraction of that converted waste heat into mechanical power as it phase changes to steam.

The water injection is needed when Hydrogen injection is used to control / mitigate the higher combustion temperatures ... that a ICE designed for straight gasoline , is not designed for.

There are engine service life issues with running some of these types of mods incorrectly ... and if not done correctly , it can significantly shorten the operating life of several engine components.

The reason we don't see it used in modern vehicles , is because Lean burn ratios as high as 25:1 in the Gen-1 Honda Insight have been achieved without it... anyone who and driven an Insight when it kicks into Lean Burn knows about the combination of improved MPG and the loss of power that comes with Lean Burn.

Asking the consumer to refill the hydrogen injection highly pressurized tanks , is not commercially viable... lacking infrastructure , cost, and convenience.

Some try to get around this issue of storage and refill by trying to do the electrolysis real time in the car off power from an alternator ... this method can help the car achieve a sustained lean burn ... but it has horribly low efficiency compared to the Honda Lean Burn Engines that do not need Hydrogen injection.

So in short there is truth there ... those who try and scam just ignore the problems of what they suggest , or they just don't know enough about what is happening to know about the problems ... and most scams will over promise the pros.


If you have any additional questions about the pieces ... feel free to ask , and I can go into more detail.
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Old 02-09-2011, 03:14 PM   #13 (permalink)
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My experiments prove otherwise. an implosion does occur. I created a combustion chamber out of 2 inch pipe, attached a balloon and there was an implosion sucking the balloon into the tube...
If you take small enough quantities of hydrogen, the heat will dissipate quickly in the surroundings, and you get the reduced volume that - ultimately - comes with the reaction.

It doesn't take much of a vacuum to suck in a balloon either.

Pulling up a piston in an engine and propelling a car is something else entirely.

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As far as heat is concerned there is very little evidence of heat in any of my experiments.
There is serious amounts of heat in combusting hydrogen and oxygen on useful levels.

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Do you know the difference in HHO (hydroxy gas) and brown's gas (atomic HHO) I am sure you do not by your comment...
I was trained as a chemist, and have been working in the chemical industry for most of my working life - I still am.
With a hydrogen car, you could drive quite a distance on the hydrogen I've converted today

I guess that qualification probably disqualifies me
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Old 02-09-2011, 03:23 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Allch Chcar View Post
Water and Hydrogen injection into the intake manifold has been shown to improve FE which is essentially all that the electrolyzers accomplish.
The simultaneous combustion of an easily combustable gas (mixture) in an ICE can indeed lower FE.

The problem is mainly in
- producing enough H2/O2 to really make a difference
- the production of the H2/O2 itself which is very energy intensive
- the production of electricity in cars, which is rather inefficient

And that's where the losses are in this setup.

Many car manufacturers are trying to get their alternators to run as little as possible, and decouple them as much as possible from the ICE when no electrical power generation is required.
Many an ecomodder has deleted his alternator to reduce engine load and improve FE.

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