HHO: Good, bad, or ugly?

[Ken Fry]

Originally Posted by bestclimb

I thought that the higher load on the alternator is why most manufactures' schedule a little more fuel when the headlights, or fan is turned on.

You are so stuck in that logical, rational box.

[UFO]

roflmao

[Cameron318iS]

Originally Posted by fastegg

How did you measure the 14hp increase ?

with a dyno

[Frank Lee]

I wonder how many man-hours have been wasted on this stupid crap?

[Cameron318iS]

Originally Posted by Ken Fry

Assuming that this increase was at WOT and perhaps 5500 rpm, would it be safe to say that the engine was taking in air at about 5500 liters per minute? (I'm guessing a 2 liter engine?) Were you producing about 1 liter per minute with your "HHO" device? In other words, about .66 liters of H2 and .33 liters of O2?



How much is the energy value of .66 liter (.66 x .09 grams) of H2? Is Wikipedia incorrect? They say 141.9 kJ per gram. So .06 grams would be about 8.43 kJ. This is 141 watt minutes. If the input energy to your HHO unit is 14.5 V and 10 amps, then you are consuming 145 watt-minutes to produce one liter of H2. This suggests that you operate at a net loss, but at an absurdly high efficiency for electrolysis -- your one liter must include some steam. But all that does not matter. Others can see that the 141 watt-minutes of H2 is an unmeasurably tiny energy quantity given the likely 100,000 watt-minutes (134 hp-minutes) of mechanical energy produced by your engine each minute. If the H2 arrived at your car for free, energetically (and if it did not displace air needed for combustion) you should expect an increase of .14% in HP: about .18 hp. (In reality, even this would not happen. H2 gas displaces air, so injecting H2 gas into the intake airstream reduces power output, because fuel flow is automatically cut back to make up for the O2 deficit.)

Wood has an energy value of about 15 kJ per gram. So a 1 gram match stick has an energy value of 15 kJ, almost twice the energy value of a liter of the H2/O2 mix you call HHO. Is Wikipedia wrong here too? If we added the head of the match, we'd be even further ahead with the match stick.



Darn... not a secret any longer. Here, you seem to be saying that thermodynamics does matter. You seem to be promoting the conventional, very expensive, means for running a car on hydrogen: buy the H2 in a tank, and let someone else incur the energy cost of creating the H2. (When you buy electrolysed H2, you are paying mainly for the energy used to create and store the H2, which is always less than the energy you get out of it by burning it, a sad consequence of those pesky thermodynamics laws.)


Here, you seem to be saying that thermodynamics does not matter. What were you intending to say: 1. Thermodynamics does not matter (things work by magic). or 2. Thermodynamics matters (things work by science)?

Given your quest for a "magnet motor", I assume it is the latter, but you are sending out mixed messages. If you are in the first class, then I'd recommend reading about combustion. (John Heywood, the MIT guy who convincingly showed that HHO units have no effect at all, has written several very good textbooks -- classics in the field of combustion.) If you are in the latter class, then I'd suggest visiting Keelynet and Peswiki, where claims of magic get a better reception than they do here.

It's just a matter of finding the tribe where you belong.

Well first off don't get info from Wikipedia cuz anyone can come in and change whatever they like about it. So any information from that source can automatically disqualify itself. Engine can not pull 5500 liters of air per minute if the air intake is only capable of 1350cfm, And I am producing a lot more than just 1 liter of HHO. I have been smarter than to just put it in my air intake. Science is a joke you never stop to think that information could be put out with the intention to mislead people, need I bring up eugenics telling people anyone who isn't white isn't a human. Don't be dickhead just cause I succeeded where others failed. More oxygen promotes a more efficient burn and the hydrogen gas creates a more powerful explosion it's that simple. If I wanted to hear to broke ***** douche bag post such pessimistic things on what I have to say I'd go back to bimmerforums. I don't see your ph.D anywhere, you just get all your info off the internet, which happens to be the least accepted source of information in the eyes of society. You should try testing it yourself given the cost of materials. Scientific theories are just that theories, there's a theory that we came from apes, and they are still here. Yet they can't find any link between us and them that just seems like a quest for a missing link that doesn't exist. As well as evolution doesn't take into account cross breeding of species. Now days more scientists actually believe in intelligent design and there is a whole **** load of evidence for that too. Given that you can use magnets to create perpetual motion then convert the kinetic energy into electric enough to power my HHO cells, it isn't magic. What is accepted by Science changes over time by people questioning the science itself, if we didn't question and test this then everyone would still think the earth is flat and that it is the center of the galaxy.

[ConnClark]

Originally Posted by Cameron318iS

I am working on a magnet generator to power mine so I dont have to have any draw on my alternator. And having a higher load on the alternator doesn't reduce you mpg your engine is still pushing the same weight and would still be working just as hard if there was a lesser load on it. Anyone who says different doesn't know physics.

Actually the the people "who says different" know more about physics. They are aware of phenomena such as Lenz's Law and Lorentz force.

If you plan on making a generator you should probably read up on those topics.

[euromodder]

Originally Posted by Cameron318iS

Most people who dissmiss this never take into account that hydrogen is what is being combusted in the engine already, Octane is a HYDROcarbon

Ignorance is bliss, I guess.

[UFO]

Originally Posted by Cameron318iS

Well first off don't get info from Wikipedia cuz anyone can come in and change whatever they like about it. So any information from that source can automatically disqualify itself. Engine can not pull 5500 liters of air per minute if the air intake is only capable of 1350cfm, And I am producing a lot more than just 1 liter of HHO. I have been smarter than to just put it in my air intake. Science is a joke you never stop to think that information could be put out with the intention to mislead people, need I bring up eugenics telling people anyone who isn't white isn't a human. Don't be dickhead just cause I succeeded where others failed. More oxygen promotes a more efficient burn and the hydrogen gas creates a more powerful explosion it's that simple. If I wanted to hear to broke ***** douche bag post such pessimistic things on what I have to say I'd go back to bimmerforums. I don't see your ph.D anywhere, you just get all your info off the internet, which happens to be the least accepted source of information in the eyes of society. You should try testing it yourself given the cost of materials. Scientific theories are just that theories, there's a theory that we came from apes, and they are still here. Yet they can't find any link between us and them that just seems like a quest for a missing link that doesn't exist. As well as evolution doesn't take into account cross breeding of species. Now days more scientists actually believe in intelligent design and there is a whole **** load of evidence for that too. Given that you can use magnets to create perpetual motion then convert the kinetic energy into electric enough to power my HHO cells, it isn't magic. What is accepted by Science changes over time by people questioning the science itself, if we didn't question and test this then everyone would still think the earth is flat and that it is the center of the galaxy.

Wow, rant much? It looks like you embrace science when it suits you and bash it when it doesn't, both in the same paragraph. But it is a large paragraph...

[some_other_dave]

Originally Posted by Cameron318iS

...Engine can not pull 5500 liters of air per minute if the air intake is only capable of 1350cfm...

Google's unit converters tell me that 5500 liters is 194.230667 cubic feet. So 5500 liters/min is less than 200 cfm.

Given that you can use magnets to create perpetual motion then convert the kinetic energy into electric...

Oh, I see. You're harnessing a perpetual motion machine. So my question here is: If you can do that, why not power the car completely from the perpetual motion machine? It would be an interesting thing to see, especially since nobody credible has ever built a perpetual motion machine. Despite many hundreds of years (at least!) of trying.

-soD

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

I wonder how many man-hours have been wasted on this stupid crap?

I would not be surprised if it were many billions, as a species.

Oh well ... their time ... their money ... I hope they found it at least equally as entertaining as things other people spend money on for entertainment.

Whoever they gave their money to for parts , etc ... is better off for it... so there is that.