HHO Mod, Does it work?

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

I do know that hydrogen aids ultra lean-burn strategies.

None of it has made it outta the lab.

So there ya are.

And as if you are an authority over the work of Honda and Mitsubishi and others. Granted, most research work never reaches the general market. But that does not mean the research was without veracity. Hydrogen augmented combustion is an accepted science. Hydrogen via on-board electrolysis generation is probably never going to make the general market for many reasons. Even if made to work, the percentage gains will be saddled by the complexity and associated costs.

I have posted links in the past to Partial Oxidation Systems that utilize one engine cylinder to produce both power and CO and H2 via rich combustion. It was partially funded by Renault if memory serves me. They have indicated the intention to include the technology in every internal combustion spark ignited engine they carry as they look for every avenue to meet upcoming emission and fuel economy targets. I assure you, they are only one of the manufacturers who are looking over hydrogen augmentation or hydrogen seeding as a possible extender of the internal combustion engine.

[Frank Lee]

Sure... HYDROGEN. The thread is about HHO. Where are these systems from the OEMS? Can I find them in the dealer lots or even the magazines? No? Are they doing it with HHO? No? Then I guess they are STILL IN THE LAB.

This also means 100% of the "aftermarket" HHO systems (as if there's anything else) out there are ****.

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

With all that science why is it in the unicorn corral?

I think it has something to do with being the absolute best case scenario mod for A-B-A testing and it still can't produce results.

How sure are you of that?

You do realize the Youtube experimenters leave much to be desired as far as scientific basis and engineering prowess.

And you do realize it is complex. It is not the simple scenario for an A-B-A test as one can run an engine so lean with hydrogen that turning off the hydrogen stream results in a no-run condition. Even the stoichiometric burn has to be adjusted for with timing changes. Stop the hydrogen stream and you must reset the timing advance or the engine lags and smokes.

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

Sure... HYDROGEN. The thread is about HHO. Where are these systems from the OEMS? Can I find them in the dealer lots or even the magazines? No? Are they doing it with HHO? No? Then I guess they are STILL IN THE LAB.

This also means 100% of the "aftermarket" HHO systems (as if there's anything else) out there are ****.

HHO is street slang for the dissociated H2O. That results in hydrogen and oxygen gas.

And you continue to think that marketability equals lab success. Did it ever occur to you that many may have tested electrolysis generators and seen small success and abandoned them in favor of generators that can produce orders of magnitude greater hydrogen? And just because they are IN THE LAB does not mean they do not work.

Since you are SO SURE all HHO systems are ****. Why don't you make a little wager. Why don't you offer a large cash prize to anyone who can make an electrolysis HHO generator show any efficiency gains beyond the resolution of measure? You know you're in the clear just like the Million Dollar Challenge guys, because you know it absolutely cannot work! Right?

[Frank Lee]

Do you even read? Look. Look at this:

Originally Posted by frank

I do know that hydrogen aids ultra lean-burn strategies.

None of it has made it outta the lab.

So there ya are.

Now show us the functional i.e. fuel-saving HHO system we can build or buy to put on our cars. Do it.

P.S. This isn't new news to me, and even worse this isn't even a new debate. See proof: http://ecomodder.com/forum/184920-post114.html OK that's pert near ed zachary 4 years ago, and it wasn't new to me then either.

[backpacker3]

I'm going the reiterate my other post in here and say this, but first I'll add the disclaimer that I'm not an expert I've never tried it and I don't profess to be or have done either of those things.

The science behind HHO and the basic principles of the idea would suggest that it should work. However the problem is that cars are not as simple as people like to think they are. Think about it every car out there is designed to work no matter where you go with it which means they are designed to cope with a staggeringn amount of variables. High elevation, low elevation, extreme cold and heat, high humidity, low humidity, different octanes levels of gas, slight variances in the makeup of gas, different levels of ethanol in gas, the list goes on and on. All of those things will affect the the detonation of the fuel so your cars computer is designed to adjust for that and therein lies the problem with HHO. When you use HHO the cars ECU will automatically adjust to compensate for it usually by changing the timing or increasing the air in the air to fuel ratio.

Now to get the system to work you would need to have the computer reduce the amount of fuel used for combustion which means you want to reduce the amount of fuel in the air to fuel ratio BUT keep the same amount of air therefore using the HHO gas as a substitute for actual gasoline. However your car has no idea that you're using HHO so all it knows is that it needs to readjust the parameters to keep everything in order and that will negate any effect of the HHO which would then mean that you could actually decrease your fuel economy because you're running the HHO generator but not getting anything from it. The best case scenario is that you have no change at all in that case.

Now theoretically you could see gains if you were to tune your car to work with the HHO but I would be wary of that personally because I don't know how precise an HHO generator is. If it doesn't produce a consistant amount of HHO you would have to allow enough of a range to compensate for the varying levels of the HHO which would kind of bring us back to the original issue of having enough compensation to negate the effect entirely. The other problem with that route is that now you've sunk however much money into the HHO generator plus a tune which can run around $500 and all the work and time to set everything up and if you don't see any results or even worse have losses now you're up a creek without a paddle. You can't just pull the generator off because you're computer was tuned to work with that setup so then what?

I'm not saying it's impossible to see gains from HHO but you should expect a lot of work and time before you get anything be it good or bad. Plus with the amount of money it would cost you could do a ton of other mods that have been proven to work time and again vs one that is rarely shown to help.

Either way it's up to you and it won't make any difference in my life if you try it or not but if you ask peoples opinions on it you should expect to see ones that don't mirror your own thoughts on the matter. Basically just HYOH and YMMV (hike your own hike and your mileage may vary) is all I or anyone else can tell you. none of us are in charge of what you do or don't do. Hopefully this doesn't ruffle any feathers because I don't mean to be offensive but that's just the way I see it.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by backpacker3

The science behind HHO and the basic principles of the idea would suggest that it should work.

I'm sorry, but basic science - that is, conservation of energy - strongly suggests that it won't work. I mean you have a device which uses electricity to dissociate water into H2 and O2, then you feed that into the engine and are somehow supposed to get back more energy than it took to dissociate them in the first place?

[some_other_dave]

Originally Posted by backpacker3

...therefore using the HHO gas as a substitute for actual gasoline.

That, in particular, is absolutely a loss in efficiency. You simply cannot produce enough hydrogen gas to substitute for any meaningful amount of fuel using on-board electrolysis. And if you try to even produce nearly enough, you will be loading the electrical system enough that your alternator will take more power and fuel to run than you would be creating.

Nobody even slightly credible will argue that point. (If they want to, they will have to re-write the laws of thermodynamics to do it.)


The argument here is that you can change the combustion (NOT "DETONATION"--the combustion process is controlled while detonation is uncontrolled!) process by adding the right amount of hydrogen and/or oxygen while doing other stuff to the engine, and allow it to make the appropriate amount of power while using less fuel. The chemistry is way over my head, so all I can say on that is that it doesn't sound completely impossible to me. (Which doesn't say that it is possible; I am not even close to knowledgeable about combustion.)


Using hydrogen to replace fuel is a net loss in fuel economy. Using it to modify the combustion process may be a net gain, or may not.

-soD

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by some_other_dave

The argument here is that you can change the combustion (NOT "DETONATION"--the combustion process is controlled while detonation is uncontrolled!) process by adding the right amount of hydrogen and/or oxygen while doing other stuff to the engine, and allow it to make the appropriate amount of power while using less fuel.

http://www.oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/wp-co...e-happens1.jpg

[backpacker3]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

I'm sorry, but basic science - that is, conservation of energy - strongly suggests that it won't work. I mean you have a device which uses electricity to dissociate water into H2 and O2, then you feed that into the engine and are somehow supposed to get back more energy than it took to dissociate them in the first place?

I only meant that because it is a combustible gas the idea of using it as fuel for an internal combustion engine is a feasible idea. Not that the exact product that was linked to in this thread had any science behind it.

Originally Posted by some_other_dave

That, in particular, is absolutely a loss in efficiency. You simply cannot produce enough hydrogen gas to substitute for any meaningful amount of fuel using on-board electrolysis. And if you try to even produce nearly enough, you will be loading the electrical system enough that your alternator will take more power and fuel to run than you would be creating.

Nobody even slightly credible will argue that point. (If they want to, they will have to re-write the laws of thermodynamics to do it.)

I think you may have misunderstood me. I was actually saying using the HHO as a gasoline substitute was likely to decrease efficiency.