how to tackle the 'new car' issue? How can we change manufacturers minds?

[Arragonis]

Maybe the media is where to start rather than the manufacturers.

When I started looking at ecodriving I checked out YouTube or Google Video for movies on ecodriving or saving fuel. Pretty much all of those published by TV channels seem to always treat the person featured as strange, kind of like your uncle who invented cold fusion and keeps bats as pets - "hey everyone, come and have a laugh at the dancing freak..."

It still happens now. I chatted to a coworker a few weeks ago and he knows I drive to get the best MPG, he was only making conversation really and thinks it is a waste of time compared to him buying a retina-detatching WRX. But when I explained how I was getting about 40% more miles out of each tank you could see the lights going on behind the eyes. Even a small car here will take £50+ to fill up, saving £20 of that each time soon adds up to something you would rather spend your money on elsewhere - that £20 will take you and your kids to the movies for example.

Whilst I enjoy Top Gear's adventures anything to do with everyday driving is not there any more. Yes, it doesn't make exciting TV but I'm sure there is an audience for more practical stuff - we can't all just be interested in learning how to cook, having a 'make-over' or how to decorate but you would be hard pressed to tell if you looked at the TV schedules.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

A non hybrid can do just as well if not better than a hybrid when driven in such a way that energy potentially recouped from regen braking is minimal.

The point is that driving in that way is not practical, or often even possible, in much of the real world. (For instance, the part that has mountains :-)) So what we see here, in actual real-world experience, is that hybrids get better fuel economy than the nearest non-hybrid equivalent.

[Arragonis]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

So what we see here, in actual real-world experience, is that hybrids get better fuel economy than the nearest non-hybrid equivalent.

And then they both get beaten by the Diesel anyway. Go compare in the Toyota link I posted above.

[basjoos]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

But not something seen in the real world, in my experience. At least with a properly-designed system like the Honda IMA. As I said earlier, I've no experience with Toyota's system, but my Insight will cruise 70-80 mpg in good conditions, but only averages around 40-50 in city driving.

I've driven the Prius and it doesn't coast anywhere near as well as the aerocivic, but with its hybrid system, the gas and electric motors are always connected to the wheels so it can't do a true freewheel coast, when the wheels are spinning, the motors are spinning.

Interesting, about 50mpg around town and 70-80mpg on the highway is the mileage that I'm getting in my non-hybrid aerocivic, despite it being a larger and heavier car than the Insight. So much for the hybrid advantage.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by Arragonis

And then they both get beaten by the Diesel anyway. Go compare in the Toyota link I posted above.

This one? Toyota - Auris specifications Strange, but when I do it, I get (combined/urban/extra urban)

1.33L petrol - 5.9/7.2/5.1
1.8L hybrid - 4.0/4.0/4.0
1.4L Diesel - 4.5/5.4/3.9

It looks like the diesel is a little bit better on the highway than the hybrid. But wait! We're not accounting for the fact that diesel has a higher energy content per gallon, are we? Taking the numbers off the Wikipedia page (and those are the lowest I saw), the ratio's 1.12:1. Adjust the figures, and we get 5.02/6.02/4.35, which makes the hybrid the energy efficiency champ.

But the real question is what you'd get if you took the petrol hybrid, and swapped in the diesel engine. I'd bet you'd see about the same improvement factor as between the petrol and hybrid, which is what I've been saying all along.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by basjoos

Interesting, about 50mpg around town and 70-80mpg on the highway is the mileage that I'm getting in my non-hybrid aerocivic, despite it being a larger and heavier car than the Insight. So much for the hybrid advantage.

But that is you driving in South Carolina, no? I would bet your mpg would drop just a bit if most of your driving was done in the Sierra Nevada, or the Nevada desert. Let's see: Highest point in South Carolina: Sassafras Mtn at 3560 ft. My house down here in the valley: 4800 ft. Pass I climbed today to go skiing: 8911 ft. Reported snowfall for the past 72 hrs: 44 inches at Mt. Rose Ski Area (but only about a foot down at my place).

See why comparing your mpg with mine is maybe not quite as simple as matching numbers?

[Arragonis]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

This one? Toyota - Auris specifications Strange, but when I do it, I get (combined/urban/extra urban)

1.33L petrol - 5.9/7.2/5.1
1.8L hybrid - 4.0/4.0/4.0
1.4L Diesel - 4.5/5.4/3.9

Yep, the extra urban (i.e. highway) comparison seemed to be what you and Basjoos were discussing - the Diesel beats both, albeit not by much.

Originally Posted by jamesqf

It looks like the diesel is a little bit better on the highway than the hybrid. But wait! We're not accounting for the fact that diesel has a higher energy content per gallon, are we? Taking the numbers off the Wikipedia page (and those are the lowest I saw), the ratio's 1.12:1. Adjust the figures, and we get 5.02/6.02/4.35, which makes the hybrid the energy efficiency champ.

Sorry but I don't think this is valid. The extra energy content of Diesel is why less of it is used compared to petrol in the first place. By doing this you are counting it twice ?

Originally Posted by jamesqf

But the real question is what you'd get if you took the petrol hybrid, and swapped in the diesel engine. I'd bet you'd see about the same improvement factor as between the petrol and hybrid, which is what I've been saying all along.

Or of course just drop the weight in the Diesel one, add stop-start and have a car arguably more efficient again - worked example Ford Focus Econetic.

Urban - 62.7 mpg
Extra Urban - 83 mpg
Combined - 74 mpg

The Econetic without stop-start drops to 56 for the urban cycle, the extra urban stays the same which is what you might expect. The Prius official figures here are

Urban 72.4 mpg
Extra Urban 76.4 mpg
Combined 72.4 mpg

The Prius is ahead in urban, the econetic ahead in extra urban and the combined more or less equal.

Which is where we came in.

[320touring]

Are we heading down a dead end here? lets get back on the plan here..

The issue is how we solve mediocre economy in new cars REGARDLESS of their powertrain format

Aero for one will work on just about everything!

[PaleMelanesian]

Hey James, not all the world has mountains. We get it that you do. Just don't try to project that on everyone.

25% of the world is mountainous:
Answers.com - What percent of the Earth's surface is covered by mountains
Mountain Partnership

[PaleMelanesian]

Originally Posted by 320touring

Are we heading down a dead end here? lets get back on the plan here..

The issue is how we solve mediocre economy in new cars REGARDLESS of their powertrain format

Aero for one will work on just about everything!

Yes.