how to tackle the 'new car' issue? How can we change manufacturers minds?

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic

So what happens to the 30k hybrid when you can buy the same mileage for half price. The market collapses.

But you can't buy the same mileage for half price (in the longer run), because anything done to increase the mileage of a non-hybrid can be done to the hybrid as well, boosting its mileage by the same ratio. So if you could build a 60 mpg Corolla today, you could use the same tech to build a 100 mpg Prius.

[Arragonis]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Finland, however, is pretty darned flat. AWD/4WD really helps in the mountains - or in places like Yorkshire, where most of the roads seem to have been engineered by sheep :-)

yeah well, they're weird in Yorkshire *

*(I'm from the better side of the pennines )

[basjoos]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

But you can't buy the same mileage for half price (in the longer run), because anything done to increase the mileage of a non-hybrid can be done to the hybrid as well, boosting its mileage by the same ratio. So if you could build a 60 mpg Corolla today, you could use the same tech to build a 100 mpg Prius.

Not true unless you are referring only to city mileage. For highway mileage, a modestly powered non-hybrid will beat the mileage of the equivalent hybrid since the non-hybrid isn't carrying the added several hundred pounds of hybrid batteries and drive. Then you will also save on the initial purchase price and some maintenance costs by not having a hybrid system. Also all of the current hybrid systems have more engine/transmission drag than a manual non-hybrid which can do true low drag freewheel once you unclutch. Urban driving is where a hybrid system with its regenerative braking shines. But if you do mostly highway driving, you can get high mpg at a much cheaper price going the non-hybrid route than by driving a hybrid.

[user removed]

Take a 2000-04 Toyota Echo and put another overdrive gear in the transmission, to get the engine RPM down to 2k (or less depending on aero) at 60 MPH from the normal 2500. Do a little aero work and DI with higher compression.

Start stop to eliminate unnecessary idling.

I had no problem averaging high 40s in mine, best was 57 using EOC while averaging better than 40 mph tank to tank.

Cheap and easy to do, but then what happens to the Prius sales?

The original Echo 2 dr was about 2100 pounds.

regards
Mech

[Arragonis]

I think was the point that was being made in Rob Chalmers' "What is the point of the Prius" thread a while ago.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by basjoos

Not true unless you are referring only to city mileage. For highway mileage, a modestly powered non-hybrid will beat the mileage of the equivalent hybrid...

Nice theory, but contradicted by real-world experience, better known as Honda Insight :-)

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by Arragonis

yeah well, they're weird in Yorkshire *

*(I'm from the better side of the pennines )

Err... Which is the better side? Over by the Lake District? I could say something about e.g. pedaling up the road from Windemere over to Ullswater. Or further north, biking west-east along the route of Hadrian's Wall.

Maybe I've just made a bad choice of routes, but from my experience it does seem that the British, as a people, never quite managed to hit on the concept of the switchback. If sheep can go up the side of a hill, they just lay down some tarmac and slap a B-route number on it :-)

[Arragonis]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Err... Which is the better side? Over by the Lake District? I could say something about e.g. pedaling up the road from Windemere over to Ullswater. Or further north, biking west-east along the route of Hadrian's Wall.

Maybe I've just made a bad choice of routes, but from my experience it does seem that the British, as a people, never quite managed to hit on the concept of the switchback. If sheep can go up the side of a hill, they just lay down some tarmac and slap a B-route number on it :-)

The west, and further South - Lancashire. Home of the first Industrial Revolution.

You have to remember we have a lot of history, so some of our roads are over 2000 years old. Some of them are Roman so they just needed to be flat enough for a relatively fit Legionary to be able to march from one fort to the next inside of a day as that was their distance policy. The locals could be nasty after dark so you would want to be somewhere safe. In some ways this has not changed much.

The remainder were influenced by local landowners who didn't want roads cutting across their land so roads kind of get twisty to make their way between fields (or ex-fields in some cases).

When we invented railways (ahem ) there was a huge fight between landowners and the railway companies (and local and national government) to allow the tracks to be laid. The story of the Liverpool to Manchester railway (the first in the world, and I recommend the linked book) contains quite a few episodes of intimidation and violence to railway workers.

The roads in Hardknott pass in Cumbria are so steep (> 1 in 3, or 33+% inclines) that at least one time the car I was in had to be emptied of all passengers so the driver could get to the top of the next summit. The next time I drove it the corners were so tight I had no issue keeping up with a SAAB turbo in my 1.0 Mini, although the gearbox needed replacing afterwards.

According to something random I read years ago the fort in Cumbria linked to above was populated by Legionaries from Corsica - damn they must have felt the cold up there.

The UK is quite similar to Japan in many ways, we have pretty much every kind of environment and climate in one small, compact place. And we are an island so we have some limited space.

And we have tons of history

It's just run by muppets.

[Arragonis]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Err... Which is the better side? ...

PS in answer to the original question about AWD - then yes, I agree. People who live in those areas have an arguable need for it. For the rest of us, no.

Be honest though, what percentage of vehicles sold by Jeep (or indeed Land Rover) are 'work' vehicles sold to the farmer or herdsman of today vs. the town/subruban moron who just likes to sit high and never goes "off road" ?

[basjoos]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Nice theory, but contradicted by real-world experience, better known as Honda Insight :-)

What is the non-hybrid equivalent of the Honda Insight (1st or 2nd gen?)?