Intake Manifold Injection
 

The question is: will injection of *Various Fluids & Vapors * directly in to the intake manifold enhance Fuel Efficiency,

reference document :
http://www.epa.gov/oms/consumer/devices/pb84163062.pdf

addition of this device is strongly discouraged on any unit operating with Catalytic Converters and computerized engine controls.
test bed: Old Yellar
Engine:NA inline 4 , 1800 CC * B* internals stock 103K miles
Ignition: Lucas 25D Points Type , custom vacuum and centrifugal advance curves
Carburetter: Skinners Union HIF 44 single side draught
Air Filter K&N in stock Coopers Can air box Cold Air Ram Induction
Timing Advance and Carb enrichment set *by ear* in reference to EGT and Manifold Vacuum

Device:AMPCO Auxiliary Lubrication ST100 New Old Stock here after known as the Pickle Jar device is powered by intake manifold vacuum
this device differs from reference document insomuch as they are Vaporizers AKA Bubblers and the ST 100 draws fluids from the bottom of the bowl and Mixes then with ambient air using a filtered intake and an adjustable needle valve while referring to a sight glass .
specification fluid is Mystery Marvel Oil [MMO]
The Vehicle will not be returned to Zero State for base lines any baselines will be operation with only MMO .
Historical Baseline w/o the device is 27-29 MPG , no data provided
no runs will be made with Empty Vessel as required by rigorous testing.

Various Fluids are in consideration for the Mix to be injected hereinafter known as the Soup

MMO: Light Lubricating Petroleum TOP OIL density 0.876,
mixes very slightly with alcohol not at all with water

Castor Oil : a lubricating product density 0.961
soluble in alcohol

Water: [H20] Density 1.0

Methanol: Methyl Alcohol[CH3OH] density 0.79
miscible with water

Nitromethane: an industrial solvent [ CH3NO2] density 1.137
mixes with water one part to ten, miscible with methanol

it would be desired to mix 10-20% Castor oil in the soup however it is the most expensive product.
proposed soup W/O water
Castor Oil 5%
NM 20 %
M 75 %
this mixture [20% Nitro] is readily available in consumer quantities
in any good hobby shop known as RC Glow Fuel

the density of this soup will be greater than MMO and the light oil will cap the mix and reduce volatile evaporation

it would be desired to mix the 20% Nitro 1/1 with water to extend the mixture however if trials show no effect at that level straight 20% nitro would be considered .
30% 40% 50% Nitro might be considered but the possibility catastrophic engine failure exists .careful adjustment of Ignition advance and carb enrichment must be done to preclude too lean a mixture in the combustion chamber and consequent detonation and valve burning.
feed rate to be NO MORE than 1 QT per tank of fuel appx 300-350 miles

other possible mixes :
MW50 [ Methanol/Water 50/50]
MW30 [methanol/water 30/70] AKA -20F windshield washer fluid

Pickle Jar on the fire wall and injector into the intake manifold midway between the Siamesed intake ports,after the throttle plate .
this means that as throttle application is decreased and manifold vacuum increases feed rate will increase .

Trials Commence in March
http://www.ampcolubes.com/images/glass_container.gif

I'm looking forward to seeing the results, though only a quart (almost 1 L) on a full tank (how big is the tank ?) probably isn't going to be much.

fuel tank : 50L/13 us Gal
not yet determined the *width* of the flow rate for the device IE: how long a QT would last at various adjustments of the needle valve 1/4 turn , 1/2 turn ,1 Turn , 2 turn etc.
at design feed rates [appx 1/4 turn][with MMO only] the QT allegedly last several thousand miles
just the top oil *might* effect the FE

at a feed rate of 1 qt /tank [appx 300 miles ] an increase of about 7-8% would be required to off set the cost of the mix.

i have procured enough product for 7 QT 20% NM.
in heritage machinery of this type the only way to calculate MPG is the run a tank ,fill and divide method. Certainly measurement errors at refuel will skew the results on ONE RUN trials

i will not do expect to do extended *special * trips on trials . rather keep records during normal usage thus the wait time between measurements may be quite long.

the initial trial quantity of product should be adequate to determine IF any FE & Power effect is produced and if further trials are warranted.

Power Increases measured by the classic enthusiast *Butt Dyno*

advise on initial amounts/percentages of water[H2O] to add to the 20% soup might be helpful
some apparent choices:
100% soup no water
75% soup 25 % water
50% soup 50% water
i am inclined to the 75/25 but care must be taken due to the available oxy in the mix and the effect of leaning the mixture to high a % soup and too high a flow rate *could* burn holes in the piston.

I'd be interested in what the flame looks like with the mix, do you have or could you invest in a colortune ? EDIT - this may help prevent you from leaning out too much. You have the right SU for this though.

My GT ('73 UK spec) has twin SUs but the engine has suffered from a lack of maintenance and is begorrad at 87k miles. I'm planning to EV it instead.

Do you have overdrive ?

no colour tune ..

i tune to this chart , by ear, vacuum and EGT as best i can , mostly by ear
of interest subsequent to the addition of the K&N performance air filter the break on the rich side of the curve was unattainable /undetectable. tuned down from full rich to the break for setting , next carb tune in consideration of the dangers of overly lean running i will add 1/4-1/2 rich from the break
http://www.sucarb.co.uk/RadUploads/h...ngle-img-2.jpg

if i had an adjustment screw with an extension brazed on it , a torque tube fitted and extended to the panel , enrichment adjustment on the fly in reference to the EGT would be *spiffy*

no OD ,, mine carries 103 K if you were down the way i think i could make the GT sing for you ,, for the MG enthusiast
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From what I remember these types of slow drip were meant for upper cylinder oiling in old vehicles , using MMO only . I think it may have help with valvetrain , keeping it oiled a bit .

Wow, I haven't worked on constant velocity carbs in long time (I used to hate tuning them ).
Does yours have bottom adjustment screw that raises the jet in height to the needle ?
Have you experimented with various weight oils in the chambers (to remove bogs or response .

EdKiefer
correct,, it is a well engineered top oilier . but one can put anything in there ,open up the needle valve a couple turns and it feeds pretty fast. im going to see what Top Fuel in metered amounts will do to FE. If it has effect that will be interesting, if not the top oil is all the good for the power plant
HS type adjust from the bottom the newer HIF type adjusts from the side
MMO seems to work good in the dashpot .

here is a schematic on the HS type
http://www.sucarb.co.uk/RadUploads/b...iples-img2.jpg

I missed you listing its Skinner carb , thats not OEM on MGB was it ?
I remember Zenith-Stromberg or was that on Triumph's

Dual SU's were stock until 74 , then single Z-S 175, a true nightmare to tune .
the HI44 [same bore]is a direct bolt on replacement 3 screw tune ,there is some evidence in the literature that a single HIF 44 will give excellent mid range power and corresponding FE .

i don't suppose you know of an available top oil that is alcohol soluble ? Castor oil is and has some interesting properties but at 1$/oz i do not care to go to the 10-20% that i would like in this mix

Sorry, I don't , the only oil I ever ran across which is water soluble was machine cutting oil , which i doubt would be any help .
On similar note back in the late 70's early 80's I did use water injection on various vehicles with decent results .These were all carb and distributor type ignition . I was able to advance ignition timing and keep engine happy from pinging with results of slightly better response an mpg .

here is the install.

i had setbacks on buffing out

i hope to post up FE results ,, as time goes bye ...

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1306825019

Why bother with this when EPA tested several things like this and showed they were bunk?

in 1971 I bought an Austin 1800, was like an overgrown mini with the "B" series engine. Overhauled it 5 times in 1 year.... until I found that the timing chain tentioner was cocking in the bore at high RPM... I liked the SU carb, something I could "twiddle"!

True, in an older car 'tuning' was a skill, an art almost - some did it by ear and feel.

yeah my carb on my starlet loves to make itself rich so every 3months or so just have to lean the b#tch out. same with idle,

Cant wait to fiddle with my new fuel injection system, unfortunatly i still need to buy some more parts to upgrade haha, should be a good conversion though

why bother ..
angst on a shoestring
why not

no EPA tests with Top Fuel [nitromethane 20/methenol 70 castor oil 10]metered in to the intake ..

finally got this sweetheart on road ,, and run a little fuel through it . no base line yet . with the additives in the top oiler i am unable to set timing advance by ear as i have had prior success [set by ear is to advance timing on hill climbs moderate throttle until *ping* is detected then retard a tad]

using previously proved methodology attempted and when i put the timing light on it i was at 60 degrees advance ,NO PING /detonation detected ..
try setting your machine to 60 advanced and see if it will start and run ..

with timing light set advance to 20 degrees BTDC runs like silk..

trying to set mixture using the EGT , question is to set LOP or ROP
[Lean of Peak or Rich of Peak] .. trying to go LOP

timing set with a light 20 BTDC , twiddling with the EGT and Mixture , not to mention added some Restore product since when i tested compression it was *uneven* i expect it will take me 3 full tanks [1000 miles] to get a baseline..

then when i get baseline i can start trials on the additives ,,
baseline will be timing /mixture /MMO[mystery Marvel Oil ] in the top oiler

then try the Dope ,, Nitromethane Methanol Castor Oil / NM+M in different percentages / NM+M + water .. those in the Know call it MW50 [methanol water 50/50] MW25 [methanol water 75/25]

not to mention the nitro percents..

no FE test baseline but i have to say that 2 lane blacktop power trials it wound out to 5K RPM top cog faster than ever seen,

seems like that with extra power that came from {somewhere?] perhaps the top fuel? with proper power application that would result in increased FE ..
a big question is that IF NM+M in the Top results in increased FE does that increase justify the [not inconsiderable cost of nitromethane and fuel grade methanol] additive..

enthusiast would say its worth the price just for the smell of burnt top fuel and castor oil ..

proper power application is judged by monitoring the vacuum gage maximum FE results from the highest possible reading on the Vacuum gage .. i try on a hard hill climb to get no less than 5 INHG .. 10 INHG preferred..

there are those [D. Vizard}who would say the constant depression SU Carb can out perform sophisticated computer monitored systems , after all the computer monitored sys are only as good as the programming and the SU works analog on density altitude as detected by the Flow .

here is a picture of my check rider for your edification


http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1311151820

i have to say this 1800 CC tractor engine sure sounds good ..
additionally would indicate that they built half a million of these ,,
a certain % remain on road none less than 33 years old .. in 30 years I bet you a jug of punch a bigger % of these machines will still road as compared with any of the new mods they are putting out now .. JMHO

here is fuel log ,, still trying to get base line established .ignition advance & mixture set ....historical FE is @ 27 MPG

http://ecomodder.com/forum/fe-graphs/graph4661.gif

There was an article in Classic Motorsports magazine a few years ago about timing and jetting on a Bee. They did their tweaking on a dyno, and were (of course) going for max power. I remember that, on the timing side at least, they found max power by backing off a couple of degrees from "just before it pings".

I'm not sure how that translates to efficiency, if indeed it does, at part-throttle.

-soD

i think power tuning and economy tuning are tightly related
i wonder if anyone can speak to setting mixture using the EGT [exhaust Gas temp] ,, trying to set LOP [lean of Peak]

am i correct in thinking that when i go lean of peak the EGT will drop?


just fueled .. here is the graph ,,,added some product *restore* need to get stabilized before the A-B-A with the Methanol/nitromethane/castor oil Soup in the top jar..
hope restore will help my oil pressure and cyl compression
http://ecomodder.com/forum/fe-graphs/graph4661.gif

The old SU was a very fine device for FE and precise fuel metering although I don't know if Mr Vizard would still advocate an SU over FI for every application these days, although for an older engine like the B it would probably be preferred.

I think he (or someone using his name) posts here.

Have you de-smogged your B ?

I think that depends on how lean you can get a carb system . I might be wrong but I don't think you can get carb systems to run good at lean mixtures (above 15:1) like fuel injector .
I used to work on performance vehicles and we tried to keep EGT below 1400 but this was WOT and turbo's . At part throttle you can probably stand a little more EGT .

I did a quick google search and this came up .

Tech Page

carb_tuning

you won't get the mixture very lean because you don't have perfect control over it, some cylinders end up getting a leaner mixture than others as some of the the fuel follows the inlet manifold walls, if you have a colortune spark plug you can see this.
You have only lean it until to just before the leanest cylinder starts to missfire, and other cylinders will be still richer. FE helps a lot.

+1 for the Colortune, I think I mentioned it before ;) Its worth the money.

Ed - I may "pinch" your links if/when I get time to restart my MGB GT resto and the electric MGB plans don't work out.

right, that was one of main advantages to fuel injection , your not limited by wet IM design and much better distribution of fuel between cylinders .

not only desmogged .. i have a drip to the intake manifold ,, design was for MMO[mystery marvel oil ] but i have a soup of nitromethane methenol and castor oil in there.. apparent difference is now unable to set time by *ear* ..

unable to detect ping on advance .. using previously proved methodology advanced to 60 degrees Before top dead center [BTDC] hummwho would have thought an ICE would start with 60 BTDC much less do a road run..


my target EGT is [as advised by race engine builder waldrop @ acme speed shop.com ] is 1250 .. sensor is one inch from the head ..

last i leaned 3 flats [half turn]

i want to get a lean adjust screw with a shaft brazed on it ,, attach a torque tube to it , route to cabin and adjust mixture +on the Fly+ ..

im worried about tuning mix too lean and burning holes in my head ..

am i correct in thinking that monitoring of the EGT will prevent that ?

i am approaching 30 MPG with a 60's technology 1800 CC analogue system

that w/o applying my FE driver technique ..[ie: stuffing foot to footfeed and running up to 5G RPM [90mph] is NOT condusive to FE ..
when stabilized and start trials ...

what kind of FE does modern 1800 CC equipment provide? vs my 60's technology

Arragonis

start the MGB GT restore either electric or classical

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go register today say .. " i have a 19** MGB GT and want to convert it to an all electric..

see what they will say..

all MGB welcome there..

my 1968 Austin 1800 with the same engine got 29 mpg US at 70-80 MPH, it was using much more, then i found the aircleaner was blocked so I removed it.

chemically correct mixture will burn at the highest temperature, right? So EGT will be lower when you run lean at first, then increase when the mixture is burning so slowly that it is still burning in the exhaust, this is when you start burning valves etc. That makes the optimum EGT the lowest temperature you get?

EGT of 1250 sound cool , would put it on rich side IMO but I never checked on carb engine .
Are these temps for only part throttle or both part WOT , unless you have EGT in each exhaust runner i am not sure how good it would be as cylinder to cylinder mixture can go wild in carb setup .
I am old school so would just read the plugs . drive vehicle in steady state that you want to test and then cut ignition an rpm, pull over and check plugs . not best but it can give decent indication of mixture and plug heat ranges .

im pretty old school my self..

i do *flying cuts* to check the plugs .. that is switch off on a run and then pull plugs ..

there is some discussion on aviation sites [usually only ones who worry about leaning via EGT ] about setting Lean of peak LOP or ROP rich of peak ..

lean of peak is a ,, alternative ,, one would think LOP would result in enhanced FE

aviation engines one can adjust the mixture *on the fly*


i am told if i get set too lean i will burn the valves .. i wonder [and inquire] if valve burning happens at high EGT and if close examination of EGT might prevent that ..
my EGT sensor is one inch from the head on cyl # 1..

i do not do very much WOT ,, it runs up so fast.. i set throttle by manifold vacuum ,,,, attempt no less than 10INGH ..5INHG on a hard pull up grade ..

15INHG in cruise ..

single SU HIF 44 .on a heilmholltz log .. my needle is *not right * im flowing much better than as designed ,,K&N filters and enhanced exhaust sector ,,
my last adjustment was 1/4 turn lean ..
currently seeing 1300 on the EGT and looking for the drop .. Lean of peak
i have no flippin idea where im set in the profile now

here are plug images ,, not so current but about he same i think ,,
http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1313837946
http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1313837918

Little hard reading them with so much deposits (hard to tell color change on ground strap) but looks pretty good to me .
how many miles on those ?

8-10K on those plugs ..

humm heavy deposit ,, a matter of perception i suppose .. not in my judgement

link to the Bosh Document on plugs .

http://www.boschautoparts.com/Techni...kPlugFaces.pdf

some of the gearheads think one needs to examine closely way down on the insulator to *properly* read a plug.. but thats TOP FUEL [ well i am running a little top fuel] i offer MFR .. advice ..

a wee bit erosion on these ,, they got dressed with a points file and set before restoring them to engine..
p1 & p1a is my #1 plug close and closer .. minimal erosion

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1314139146

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1314139146

heavy_ash is from reference of heavy deposit with noticeable erosion,, UNSAT

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1314139146

the wear looks ok to me for 8-10k . what is normal OEM change interval from MG , around 15k ?

rest looks ok to me , thou8gh its easier to read plug with less miles on it IMO .

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...p-17904-2.html

I think I found the magic exhaust valve burning A/F.

Yes an EGT might show it.
If you want to use an A/F ratio gauge a problem I see is most of the affordable A/F gauges out there only read A/F out to about 15.5:1. Slightly leaner than 15.5:1 is where I believe the valve burning happens.

Those plugs look positively nasty. I have seen MGB plugs from stock engines that had a lot more miles on them than that and they looked a lot better than that.

When you start messing with water/alcohol injection you need to be checking plugs a whole lot more frequently than 8k miles. If you get a bad distribution of the mixture you can burn a valve or cylinder in a heart beat. Just ask any of the Unlimited racers at Reno about how easy it is to blow up an engine.

Military aircraft in the piston era used a water/alcohol injection system to boost power briefly for takeoff. There was only so much you could carry without compromising gas (range) or payload (ordnance) and the engines were not built to take it for long anyway.

If you are burning exhaust valves I would suggest that you are a candidate to replace them with SS valves, perhaps even sodium filled ones, if you want to continue this experiment. (Do the valve seats while you have the head off.) Despite their racing history, MGB production engines were never meant to take a lot of abuse although they put up with more than most people would imagine.

By the time you get into an EGT, cylinder head temp and adjustable fuel mixture setup, I am afraid that you will be defeating the purpose of an MGB which is simply reliable (well, at least by British standards) transport that is fun, even at slower speeds, with a top that is easy to put up and down.

The modern day version of the MGB is the Mazda Miata, at least the first version.

Did you even install modern valve seats in the head? That is a fairly useful thing to do to prevent "valve recession".

In any event, have fun with your project.

those plugs are quite crusty ..
but the gaps were pretty good [measured and adjusted] minimal erosion and the electrode clean ..

this machine is a 1979 came with emissions & catalytic converter .. NO-Lead Head from factory ..I never had the head off

be sure i'm looking at those plugs quite often, In-fact since i added some Snake-Oil "Restore" to the sump i have been checking cyl compression ever tank of fuel.

its just back in service after Hiatus for coachwork.. im still looking for a baseline , trying to burn off the initial add of *soup* to the top jar and get baseline wit MMO[mystery Marvel Oil] dripped in the intake ..

it is interesting to me that after the addition of the Top Jar i was UNABLE to get any *ping* even with the timing way too far advanced[60BTDC !!!!!!!]
i tried to set by ear and was unable.. had demonstrated good success using that methodology previous ..

those plugs look fine with A/F heat range, though it looks like the color change on ground electrode is towards the base . there is slight increase in deposits but you are in affect running fuel additives , which will show same thing with heavy doses .

What exactly are you running in the drip jar ?

are you running MMO in it ?

Design on that top Oiler is for MMO

i had nitromethne 20% /methanol 70% /castor oil 10% ..in it

i considered putting some acetone in the mix but flash point on acetone is much too low for my comfort zone

ran about half a jar of that soup pretty quick .. one problem is that that mix is colorless and have trouble making it out in the sight glass ..MMO has color and i cam make it ..

i wanted to run a few tank with straight MMO and became convinced it got gummed up ..just ran 25 miles on a fresh tank of fuel and decided to dismount and flush the jar.

i suppose baseline for this tank is shot since i dumped into the main tank.. several oz. MMO and less than one oz the soup.. into 12 Gal heritage [no ethanol] fuel..

got the top oiler clearly feeding with 2 full turn on the needle valve and noticed my hot idle oil pressure was up by one full increment .. from 2 kg/cm to 3 kg/cm.. humm
2 turns makes it smoke .. i dialed back to 1/4 turn..

after i stop tweaking on the mixture and decide i have baseline intent is to mix up a little soup and run it through..

Acetone is not something to mess around with. It has a flash point of minus something or other F. I would be very surprised if you did not also have fuel vaporization problems in the fuel line before it ever gets to the engine. Not to mention that it is a solvent of who knows what in the fuel system.

solvent-
not to mention corrosive effects .

can not link just now but all these solvents have corrosive effects on *different* metals .. methanol and ethanol are corrosive to different metals ..

the body of the carb comes to mind. .. then the plastic parts . fuel lines. fuel level float , internal parts in the fuel pump , carb bowl float..

this is going straight from the jar in engine bay down a short copper pipe to centerpoint cast iron intake manifold ..

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1314356154

in the *thought* experiment phase of this i examined the flash points ,density, solubility ,miscibility, so forth of these substances.

on the net one can find various wild men adding nitromethane to a gasoline fuel tank.a waste of time i think since i do not think nitromethane mixes with gasoline and with a higher density goes to the bottom and rolls around ..

i have read claims of acetone in the tank increasing FE - some claim 35% [none proved to my satisfaction] its cheap and easy to obtain but the flash points and flammability are scary flash point for Acetone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia -17C. Nitromethane and fuel grade methenol , on the other hand are not so easy to procure and costy. Methenol/water mixes are easy to procure [AKA windshield washer fluid]

net research will reveal many New ,pressurized [pump driven] top injectors using MW 50 [methanol/water 50% ] some with 20% nitromethane ,, injecting into turbocharged units , intent to cool the exhaust flow in order to keep from melting down the turbine blades ,, but these cats are running EGT upwards 1600F - if i see 1400 i back out and adjust ..target value of 1250 .
EGT is a nice gauge, i would like CHT [cylinder head temp] and oil temperature but i am running out of panel space for gauges.

since i have to run a full tank [ or substantial portion] to calculate FE it will take me a very long time to run these trials .

a header tank with increments would be nice ,

I was thinking....the sounds like the fuel used for model aircraft glow plug engine fuel! what is the theory behind this, why should it inprove fuel consumption?