interference engines

[Frank Lee]

My Mom's car recently failed to start. Got a tow to a local stealership and in no time they had identified $1500 worth of "necessary" repair work. Pa got the phone message just in time to go down there, get the car off the hoist, drive it home, and clean the battery terminals. Car has been fine ever since.

Drama queens love to replace stuff before it's necessary.

[wagonef8]

Been in to Honda's for over ten years and own 16 Honda's so far and never had one problem with timing belt my current project car revs to 9300 RPM's on a stock timing belt and been doing it for 3 years

And I seldom go over 3000 RPM's while trying to get good millage so that's not even a concern

[Ford Man]

Originally Posted by TracerZX2

Maybe It is just Missouri weather, but timing belt fail is extremely common here. It is one of the largest causes of death for SOHC ford engines around here. Fortunately the zetecs I run are non-interferance, even though the manufacturer says otherwise. Typical ZX2 belt fail is between 80k and 130k.


Respects
Tracy

Which Ford SOHC engines are you referring to? I'm not up to date on the newer models of Ford engines, but all SOHC 1.9L and 2.0L Escort engines were non interference engines. I think the only interference engine that was ever put in any of the Escorts was the 1.6L in the early Escort models. Many publications say the Escort engines are interference and many mechanics misinform customers of this, but I know first hand they are non interference. I do my own timing belt/water pump changes on my Escorts at 100K mile intervals, but I've had two timing belts break on it in 518,700 miles and both times just had it towed home, put a new belt/water pump on it and fired it up. The first one must have been a faulty belt, because it hadn't been on the car long when it failed. When the other one broke it was due to the bearing in the water pump seizing when the belt had about 95K miles on it. If my engines were interference type I'd change the timing belt/water pump/tensioner every 75K miles just to be on the safe side. If I wanted to only change the timing belt on the '88 I could do it in 1-2 hours, could probably do it in less than an hour if I really wanted to work hard. I can do the water pump/timing belt in about 3-4 hours. I also just changed the water pump/timing belt in my '94 and '02 Escorts last summer which probably took about 5-6 hours.

When you inspect your timing belt be sure to look on the back side of the belt where the teeth are made into the belt. Many times the front of the belt will look just like new, but if you look at the back side near where the teeth are made into it if the belt is old or getting in poor condition there will be cracks in this area and more likely to strip teeth off anytime. I've actually never had a timing belt brake, instead they stripped teeth off.

[jtbo]

Originally Posted by Ryland

Has anyone on here had a Honda Civic timing belt brake due to age and not miles? I have never heard of someone with a Civic that had their timing belt brake without it having over 100,000 miles and there are a ton of people with civic's on here, many of them with timing belts that are 10, 15 or even 20+ years old, and it's very rare to even see a civic for sale that has a broken timing belt, so it really seems like it would be bordering on a freak occurrence to have it brake just because it was more then 5 years old.

When I worked at car repair shop, there was at least one Honda Accord that was very low mileage car, but belt snapped at age of 10 years, was not driven more than 20 000 miles with that belt.

It did snap at startup so not huge damage.

Also there were a lot of timing belt failures, mostly because of age as people were only looking miles (or kilometers as we use here).

Oil seals harden, bushes start to crack, even tires harden and start to crack over time, so why timing belt would not? It sees high temperatures and is under lot of strain even when engine is not running, what would be reason for it to not get bad with age?

Volvo has 4 years (or 160 000-180 000km depending from model), Fiat 3 years, Mitsubishi 5 years, Peugeot 4 years, Honda has 5 years or 100 000km and so on, for many makes initial time and distance has been longer but they have shortened it because of frequent failures.

Now Volvo for some other marketing area has then 120 000km and 8 years, which gives one idea how it depends from area, some places are much more friendlier for belt than others.

If you live in area where temperatures are not so cold, you probably get longer times for belt change as even weaker belt will do the job just fine, but one should be aware of that, so that when taking car to cold area sometime, there will not be unpleasant surprise of belt issues at cold morning startup.

Starting engine at -4F to -40F is bit different than at 60F, something worth to remember before judging time based belt changes to be hysterical.

It is so cheap and simple job that worth learning to do by yourself and do it more often than too late as engine repairing is not going to be cheap.

I did read that new ford has 10 years timing belt change and 200 000km, I doubt that will last, they probably will shorten that to 5-7 years within next 5 years, everyone has been forced to do that so far because our harsh natural conditions.

[Frank Lee]

Where I live we typically get a -30F day or a month/winter.

[jtbo]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

Where I live we typically get a -30F day or a month/winter.

I think that Maine has similar weather to shoutern part of this country, but where I live it is something between Canada and Alaska, unless wikipedia lies about Maine's temperature range, which I find being not quite as low in Wiki that I have heard it should be.

I don't live in coldest part of country, but we get these cold spells, which are annoying and stressing to cars and their parts:

[Frank Lee]

I can practically spit into Canada from here. It gets cold. They spread lots of salt. Things rust out. It can be tough on batteries, but my '94 F150 still sports the OEM battery! It's on its 2nd serpentine belt (can't remember why I changed it), 2nd air filter (could have left it but changed it out of guilt), OEM plug wires, 2nd set of plugs, 3rd set of tires, OEM brakes except for a couple rusted out hard lines, OEM exhaust, 2nd windshield (thanks for the shower of gravel outta the landscaping truck, retard from Ohio ), all OEM cooling system parts i.e. hoses, radiator, water pump; flushed and refilled it once , one new tailgate cable, replaced one (or was it two?) headlight bulbs, P.S. 4 shock absorbers and IIRC a tie rod end... and on other vehicles too, I don't have to change stuff out <5 years.

How much of that pickup would have been replaced several times over by now (18 years!) by someone that loves to fix things that aren't broken?





One year old pics... not a complete POS yet...

[jtbo]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

I can practically spit into Canada from here. It gets cold. They spread lots of salt. Things rust out. It can be tough on batteries, but my '94 F150 still sports the OEM battery! It's on its 2nd serpentine belt (can't remember why I changed it), 2nd air filter (could have left it but changed it out of guilt), OEM plug wires, 2nd set of plugs, 3rd set of tires, OEM brakes except for a couple rusted out hard lines, OEM exhaust, 2nd windshield (thanks for the shower of gravel outta the landscaping truck, retard from Ohio ), all OEM cooling system parts i.e. hoses, radiator, water pump; flushed and refilled it once , one new tailgate cable, replaced one (or was it two?) headlight bulbs... and on other vehicles too, I don't have to change stuff out <5 years.

How much of that pickup would have been replaced several times over by now (18 years!) by someone that loves to fix things that aren't broken?

---clip---

One year old pics... not a complete POS yet...

But Frank, isn't that just testimony how well parts and truck are made, so that one can skip with service and it does not cause issues?

I think it is better to replace parts bit more often than wait them to fail, only issue I have is that manufacturers are no longer giving information from individual part's designed life as everything has designed life and if replaced at that schedule car is just like new after 30 years, well almost.

When I replace parts, I don't throw old ones away, most have still bit of life left so if wallet is really thin I can use short time those old parts until wallet becomes normal again. Also some parts like brake calipers are possible to refurbish and don't need to buy more than one extra set, when old ones start to leak or stick, then swap one from shelf and refurb set taken out from car.

Old timing belt can be then used for many other things, one can make a tool from it etc.

That is good reason to learn service car by yourself of course.

Regarding to air filter, my car's filter is again in poor condition, need to wash it, for some reason it gets really dirty in one year and it has really lot less airflow. Another car does not get dirty filter for years, it stays clean and flows well. Replacement intervals are around same for these cars, there one is too often, one is almost too rarely.

Volvo 850 had really long air filter change interval originally, that caused even engines to wear out, can't remember if they changed that interval, but compression test did show issues with many of those cars and air filters were really shot so that there was unfiltered air going past filter.

I would be careful with rubber parts though, especially timing belt as it is quite expensive thing if that fails.

Rust is perhaps number 1 killer of older cars here too, too much salt.

I think that your truck could use new headlights, that is if you drive in dark, I would guess that you have 50% or less of original illuminating power, I have replaced headlights from two of my cars and for one it was similar to your truck, improvement to lights was really incredible. Reflector gets dark with age and is eating the light. If reflector is metal, it can be coated again of course, but it is whole story by itself.

Most of my driving is during dark hours, so having good lights is quite important for me, of course different if driving mostly at daylight.

[TracerZX2]

Originally Posted by Ford Man

Which Ford SOHC engines are you referring to? I'm not up to date on the newer models of Ford engines, but all SOHC 1.9L and 2.0L Escort engines were non interference engines. I think the only interference engine that was ever put in any of the Escorts was the 1.6L in the early Escort models. Many publications say the Escort engines are interference and many mechanics misinform customers of this, but I know first hand they are non interference. I do my own timing belt/water pump changes on my Escorts at 100K mile intervals, but I've had two timing belts break on it in 518,700 miles and both times just had it towed home, put a new belt/water pump on it and fired it up. The first one must have been a faulty belt, because it hadn't been on the car long when it failed. When the other one broke it was due to the bearing in the water pump seizing when the belt had about 95K miles on it. If my engines were interference type I'd change the timing belt/water pump/tensioner every 75K miles just to be on the safe side. If I wanted to only change the timing belt on the '88 I could do it in 1-2 hours, could probably do it in less than an hour if I really wanted to work hard. I can do the water pump/timing belt in about 3-4 hours. I also just changed the water pump/timing belt in my '94 and '02 Escorts last summer which probably took about 5-6 hours.

When you inspect your timing belt be sure to look on the back side of the belt where the teeth are made into the belt. Many times the front of the belt will look just like new, but if you look at the back side near where the teeth are made into it if the belt is old or getting in poor condition there will be cracks in this area and more likely to strip teeth off anytime. I've actually never had a timing belt brake, instead they stripped teeth off.

Correct, I should have been more specific on the SOHC being the 1984 and earlier 1.6, my mistake.

I am on my 3rd DD ZX2 which a have logged over 500k miles between them and I also replace a lot of belts for a shop near me that buys and rebuilds escorts and foci amongst other things. The ones I have seen let go do so for a number of reasons, some shed teeth, some let go after a TB idler or tensioner gives it up, some have been sitting around for a few years and let go upon startup. I have witnessed them looking fine and then shedding teeth a few days later.

[TracerZX2]

Frank,

I know what you are saying to a point, but in post 31, wasn't a lack of PM the cause of all of the drama and expense of the tow bill? I don't believe anyone said just take everything off and replace it every 30k just for fun. What most of us were speaking too specifically was post 6 where a car (CRX) with an interference engine of 130K with a suspected original timing belt still installed should or should not have the TB replaced. I have seen interference engines that have let go of the timing belt, it really is an expensive problem that could have been very inexpensively avoided by replacing the belt, especially if you can learn to do it yourself.

I will say I agree with JTBO on the air filters where it relates to my car. Add in the fact that I live on a gravel road and drive them every day to work, I go through filters. I do clean them with shop air regularly but the style my car uses still become plugged regularly. I can tell when mine is restricting flow by the ZX2 is acting and for my money it is cheap insurance.

Same with the lights, again, I live in middle of nowhere and leave for work in the dark and during winter, return home in the dark, lots of light is important to me as I have found out first hand that a deer is very hard on a vehicle as are other wildlife and farm animals that are regularly found on our roads. Heck, I go to the extreme of polishing my headlight lenses and reflectors as well as replacing lamps when they reach the point of dropping by more than 30 lumens. Again, no drama there, just like having more light for my old eyes to see by.

I have yet to make a tool from an old timing belt, but willing to learn what tool that would be, but I do have a set of brake drums with post welded to them and roller tops that I use for dandy supports for material at my table saw, router table and miter box. I do keep an alternator that I have rebuilt on the shelf at all times to keep drama down when on goes or to sell to a customer that has one crap out.

Granted, I didn't wait for them to break before I stopped using them on the car, the micrometer said it was time to replace them so I did. When it comes to brakes, I don't wait for it to break. If it is worn, I replace it in my spare time while checking fluids, changing oil every 9000, cleaning battery terminals and other PM.

Here we have winter lows below zero as well, and MDOT loves spreading the salt. Summer highs can be over 100 for days or weeks at a time and everything in between. I include washing mud and salt from under my cars and undercoating them to keep them from rusting out because I hate rust and am not good at fixing it. The kids love doing the washing in the summer especially, so it is pretty easy as well.

Which has more drama? Oh crap won't start, call tow truck and get it to mechanic, oh crap they want $1500 bucks, run down, clean battery terminals, drive car home OR sunny afternoon, listen to ball game on radio, do PM, maybe enjoy an adult beverage, smoke a brisket, ribs or shoulder and drive car at will, no problems? Every person has to answer that for themselves per their tolerance for failures.

T