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Old 07-10-2009, 04:01 AM   #11 (permalink)
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What i understand from "Smokey Yunick Phase Adiabatic engine" is this;

1.) the gasoline internal combustion engine is woefully inefficient
2.) the fuel, air ratio was the first place he started
3.) vaporized fuel was his preferred method to deliver a more efficient combustible charge
4.) the problem, how to change a liquid fuel to heated vapor in suspension
5.) deliver a leaner (approx. 20:1 ratio), compressed combustible charge
6.) compression may accomplish two things a.) act as one way control valve
b.) increased volume to the charge
7.) waste exhaust heat used to a.) drive the compressor, b.) heat the intake manifold
8.) waste heat from coolant used to heat the initial charge

I might be naive, gasoline burns, gas fumes are more explosive. Just because "Smokey Yunick" patented his idea and invention. C'mon, maybe there's something to it. He had a few car company's (who???) interested. I think he was, his own man and would not be intimidated. If they didn't want to play ball, his way. Oh well!!!

P.S. "He who laugh's last, laugh's best", Keep on wrenchin'

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Old 07-10-2009, 06:42 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Smokey may have pushed lean burn to the limits and likely obtained quite high overall efficiency but he didn't re-write the Second Law of Thermodynamics which applies to all heat engines. The high levels of nitrous oxides produced by the very hot combustion and difficulty in making a 3-way catalyst work would create more problems than it solved in today's terms.

Comments in the link you posted on the eng-tips site are the ones I put the most trust in since from my membership there I know a number of those posters are highly-qualified and experienced automotive engineers. Plus it seems a couple of other posters have direct experience with Smokey's engine. But the fact that the patent hasn't been renewed is pretty telling of today's value of this design as a whole. And as pointed out, obtaining complete combustion is hardly a problem with modern fuel injection systems, and highly-optimized combustion chambers and valve timing.

Keys to efficiency for a gasoline engine - small displacement, high compression, minimization of throttling losses, optimum exploitation of the brake-specific fuel consumption characteristic, retention and re-use of waste coolant heat for quick warm-up - not coincidentally all items you can find today in a Toyota Prius.
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Old 08-19-2009, 05:19 AM   #13 (permalink)
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The Challenge: MPG, are you up to it or not!!!

When are we change the way we think. C'mon guy's, we have to think outside the box!!! Let me try to... No, we need a better fuel delivery system. Carburetors work, fuel injection is better, electronic system's are great, and the digital age is here. But all in all they will not get us the mpg's!!! We need a new fuel delivery system. This is what i propose, a device that can be installed or retrofitted to any engine. Okay, okay, after everybody laughs themselves silly. Think about when you see, here, tweet, or get an email. That someone or a group of somebodies (because they will get more than 15 minutes) have changed the way we supply fuel to an engine. What is it people say (why didn't i think of that!!! ) You couldn't get up off the floor laughing at, or typing a ( i know ) quick response. I know this is a invitation for criticism, but necessity is the mother of invention. Now that i have your attention one way or the other, here goes.

Off the subject a little, you may have started with a (pc or a mac, windows, mac os, Linux or whatever even ie, firefox, or opera ) Sorry rambling, You are not where you started. To the point, ( i ain't no blogger ).

The Project
1.) one internal combustion engine ( even a lawnmower )
2.) remove the fuel line, maybe the carb too

The Concept ( out of the the box )
A.) can you run it on concentrated fuel vapor ( not liquid )

The Problem
B.) safely deliver, regulate, and meter fuel to the induction system to adequately operate said engine throughout it's intended operating range, for whatever its use, or environment

Research and Development ( Let's Open Source it [example: Linux] )
C.) we have information technology at our fingertip's
D.) we can do this, be safe, document, start small, refine, scale up
E. ) the goal, double your average mpg, maintain or improve hp and torque

I might be telling my age, back in the day. Chevrolet did what conventional thinking said couldn't be done ( Zora-Arkov Duntov and engineers squeezed 1hp per cubic in. out a 283cu. in. engine. ) Hey it even had fuel injection ( i think ). What ever your flavor of auto racing, look at all the improvements in the past 50 yrs. Them NASCAR racers just started going close to 200mph in the late 70's and early 80's.

I'm not sure, how this thread stuff works, but i'm gonna post to several.

Now discuss. Plan, get out the tools, strip it, mod it, let's see some results, record some data, share some knowledge, isn't that why we come together on the net???

Last edited by dogg38; 08-19-2009 at 05:32 AM.. Reason: corrections
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Old 08-19-2009, 10:21 AM   #14 (permalink)
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There are lots of cars powered by propane, which vaporizes very readily. Why do you think that matters?
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Old 08-19-2009, 12:09 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
I just wanna hand the key's to my 85' small-block g-body to my grandson in about
20 yr's. (getting about 400hp 50mpg, i can dream can't i)
There are a few people out there that have built cars that have delivered around 500HP and get 45mpg. But they are from a much smaller engine (1.6L 98 CI).

They utilize a lighter car and dual cam profiles,turbo technology,aftermarket efi systems.etc.

IMO The fuel is pretty much all being burnt. The problem is not much of energy is getting to the wheels to move the vehicle. A lot of it is being wasted in heat form and wasted.
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Old 08-19-2009, 12:09 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Okay, okay, after everybody laughs themselves silly.
W'ell I' a'gree w'ith on'e thin'g he' s'aid.
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Old 08-19-2009, 10:26 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I remember Smokey saying (in the '70s) that no import car engine could last 100,000 miles, and we'd all buy American engines if we had any smarts.
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Old 08-20-2009, 04:57 AM   #18 (permalink)
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I've always been keen on Smokey's work, and was glad to see the list of resources, but the 1st one I hit on started with him saying that the vapour engine project was nearly moribund; the remaining interest seemed to be from outside, not inside. He was one of the best at pushing the envelope, but never got all the way to market with the available materials.
I think that the best recent news is Fiat's Multiair system for Variable Valve Timing, which can keep an engine efficient over a wide range of outputs.
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Old 08-21-2009, 06:11 AM   #19 (permalink)
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First things first, thanks for the insightful comment's and discussion.

Thanks you, Bicycle Bob for the keyword search on the Fiat's Multiair system for Variable Valve Timing.

Green Car Congress: Fiat Introduces Multiair Electro-Hydraulic Valve-Timing System

Sounds reminiscent of something Cadillac did in the early 1980's. The project 4,6,8 seems to come to mind. I think it went like this; a V-8 with individual fuel injector's that were computer controlled, so they could shut down either 2 or 4 depending on engine load conditions.

Fact or fiction; I think, i remember reading a article in the 70's or 80's that one of the big 3 auto makers. Tested new engine's from its assembly plant with natural gas ( not sure if it was safety reasons or less damaging or both ).

On the trail, going to track it like a blue tick hound!!! (Smokey)

I think there something being missed in his ( Smokey Yunick ) invention. From of the latest news ( national, cable, and internet ) outlets, lots of inventor's can't get patent's for their so called fuel saving devices. This man had one heck of a body of work and reputation. He is to be inducted this month into SEMA Hall of Fame. Hey, most of his former race cars are all collector's items.

From what i been able piece together is, there's more to that Fiero than meets the eye. Even down to the 'not for sale' stamped into the tires. From what i understand, the turbo was installed not only for boost. But as a one-way safety safety device. Even
from what i have researched on internet the cam was special grind ( with reduced intake and exhaust overlap ( maybe to prevent scavenging ) i think. From what i found out on the net this past weekend, he may have built up 5 of these things.

A white Fiero in Tennessee, a DeLorean in Jacksonville, FL., it even displayed at 2006 Amelia Island Concours d' Elegance cars show. One a Nova i think in Texas, Mustang or Cougar and unknown ( red Fiero, ithink Alabama ) who knows where. I could have the colors reversed on the Fiero's ).


I have to admit it has more than peaked my interest. I will try to get my research and web links organized this week end.
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Old 08-21-2009, 07:02 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote from Georgia Fiero Club webpage titled "Driving the Smokey Yunick Hot Vapor Fiero by Eric Schneck

" Smokey’s system created roughly 1.8 hp per cubic inch, and could be applied to virtually any Otto-cycle (standard 4 stroke) engine. Using this formula, it is quite possible to create big block 454 engines getting 817hp. In every case the horsepower was created at 5200 rpm, which makes for a very streetable engine! So now you have some background on the theory of the engine, but what about the components themselves? The engine runs a basic carburetor, sitting on what Smokey calls a “first stage vapor generator”. Hot water exiting from the engine runs through tubes in this vapor generator and heats the fuel mixture to around 200 degrees. The fuel mixture is then passed through what looks like a stock turbo, however it is not a turbocharged engine. The turbo-like device is actually a homogenizer and the second-stage vapor generator. Exhaust gases surround a turbine, through which the incoming air and fuel are mixed. This mixture is again heated, bringing it to approximately 285 degrees. From there the mixture travels into a custom intake manifold that is surrounded by exhaust gasses, which again heats the mixture to the desired 400~440 degrees. It is at that temperature that the fuel is fully vaporized. As Hot Rod wrote, “The beauty of Smokey’s system is its simplicity, but simplicity is deceptive. Staged heating or the working fluid (air/fuel mixture), homogenization of the working fluid at the proper point in the heating process, and balanced heat management are the keys. Get one thing wrong and the whole thing won’t work. There’s a lot of physics and chemistry involved, and a few of the details contained in the various patents on this design have been intentionally withheld by the Smoke, although the basic principle of operation has been explained here. "

Georgia Fiero Club Official Website

Just rediscovered this. I think, it explains his ( Smokey ) basic idea.

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