Looks like my poor mans Hybrid just might have merit!

[fshagan]

There's a designer with a kit car using a diesel engine driving the front wheels and an electric motor driving a single rear wheel:

With the XR-3, the two front wheels are powered by the ICE engine, and the single rear wheel is electric powered. The two power systems are not integrated within the vehicle. The connection between the ICE and the electric power systems is provided by the ground. Proper phase-in between the two power systems is handled by a simple throttle mechanism, and a dash-mounted switch to select between ICE power, electric power, and dual power modes.
From http://www.rqriley.com/xr3.htm

He seems to think you can combine a simple throttle and three position switch to integrate the "push" from the electric to assist the ICE.

The image is too large to link directly in the forum, but here's a link to a rendering of the ICE and electric motor configuration:

http://www.rqriley.com/imagespln/xr3...asmy-tv1-b.jpg

[rmay635703]

Originally Posted by JohnnyGrey

Your idea would be more like half car, half EV, not so much a hybrid. A few points to consider...

1. When the motor is assisting the ICE, it's pushing it down into a less efficient part of the BSFC map. You'll be getting considerably less power from the ICE, but it will only be using a little less fuel.

Not entirely accurate (look at the E-Wheel jobber), many vehicles during acceleration and at low speeds are HORRIBLE anywhere above idle. If said vehicle has a manual leave motor off and drive electric at low speeds and in the energy wasting reverse area, start to go faster, regen for braking at all speeds, automatic do the same if the vehicle is one of the few like my old sub that doesn't seem to care about being pulled 80mph 300miles in neutral or have gasser operate at the RPM that removes engine braking. Also many pickups with V6's or small V8's lug at highway speeds and AREN"T very powerfull meaning you have to push further than you should on even a small incline or in moderate wind. This config would offer an assist so these vehicles do not enter this inefficient area.

Originally Posted by JohnnyGrey

I would rather see a well-engineered design than you blowing money and time only to half-ass it and give up after disappointing results.

Remember the Accord Hybrid. Same V6 as the regular Accord (not to mention millions in R&D), just with motors added. Economy was worse than the 4cyl version.

Very true we would all like to see well engineered designs, sadly in these areas somebody has to make a lot of time and money wasting mistakes before we will see one that is usefull, just the way of things.

Cheers

[Nerys]

Well the way I see it is I can do is cheaply so its not a costly mistake whether it works or not. assuming I can get a cheap enough electric motor the entire project should be around $500. I spend that in gasoline in less than 5 weeks.

Second. It will be quite fun. I enjoy tinkering and screwing with things so I am not too concerned about wasted time.

If I gain nothing I am simply out a few dozen hours and max $500 but even then I end up with an electric motor and batteries I can VERY likely use in something else so in reality my only loss would be the $100 or so on the axle and my time installing everything.

SO if it does not work I am out a very modest amount of money and time but gained a lot of knowledge in the process.

But if it works. Well if it works just imagine. Even if I only gain 10mpg thats another 200 miles per tank. 300 miles per month 3600 miles per year or 144 gallons of gasoline saved or $576 saved JUST at todays prices. IE it would pay for itself 100% in less than 1 year and thats if I only gain 10mpg.

I consider that WELL worth the minimal effort and expenditure. Worth it even for the CHANCE of am improvement. In fact I am 99% certain this will succeed presumably on what kind of electric motor I can acquire. Power in is power in. Its simply math. If I am applying significant power from an electrically driven motor to propel my van WILL cause the ICE to use less fuel since it will have less work to do.

I believe this idea of a "power band" is silliness in this regard otherwise how could we gain so much mpg by shifting to neutral and coasting. Clearly "idle" is not its most efficient speed.

Either way its gonna be fun. I really think this is something I can do. I hope I can do it. The only thing holding me up right now is money and finding the appropriate electric motor that I can afford.

[rmay635703]

I agree with your post, the main issue is electric range when you are talking a give it all she's got setup even with motor assist. If your driving distance is minimal you can get away, if not some type of recovery, regen or recharge should be in the works. I have long thought about putting the front 4wd config onto my dodge to mount an electric motor, to make it electric in town where the milage is half.

Cheers

Originally Posted by Nerys

Well the way I see it is I can do is cheaply so its not a costly mistake whether it works or not. assuming I can get a cheap enough electric motor the entire project should be around $500. I spend that in gasoline in less than 5 weeks.

Either way its gonna be fun. I really think this is something I can do. I hope I can do it. The only thing holding me up right now is money and finding the appropriate electric motor that I can afford.

[Nerys]

Range is not even an issue since I am leaving the ICE system untouched. When the batteries die I just stop using them. I keep adding more batteries till I can make it to work without them dieing. I was even thinking a small battery "trailer" so when I know I will be driving well outside the battery range I can just unhitch but that would get really annoying fast and kind of ruin the otherwise stock appearance.

[rmay635703]

Originally Posted by Nerys

Range is not even an issue since I am leaving the ICE system untouched. When the batteries die I just stop using them. I keep adding more batteries till I can make it to work without them dieing. I was even thinking a small battery "trailer" so when I know I will be driving well outside the battery range I can just unhitch but that would get really annoying fast and kind of ruin the otherwise stock appearance.

I have considered a trailer for my little Comutacar electric but the extra weight seems to kill most of the gains on a pure electric (talking others experience on that end), not sure on a bigger gasser though how much loss there is with a trailer.

If your using lead, range is always an issue even with the ICE, as the batteries tend to degrade rapidly when allowed to set in a state of high discharge (yes I drive an EV 5 days a week)

Depending on what voltage you use you might want to setup a de sulphating charger to run off your alternator at a low amperage to keep the batteroes fresh while they wait to be charged, no sense letting a $1k battery pack set and die when a cheap solution can keep them clean and happy while not killing your alternator or mileage Some have also setup systems where the alternator works as engine braking when you are decellerating to add poor mans regen braking. Lots of angles are possible when you have both sytems in play.

The cheapest desulphater seems to be a homebuilt Bedini charger, I am in the process of getting the last parts to build a Bedini SSG cold pulsing charger. BS factors aside they really do desulphate batteries well and might even be a little more efficient than a typical EV charger. I have been thinking of adding one with a small Nicad source battery to my all electric car so when it sits discharged, I can have a small desulphating charge pulsing through. (also a bedini charger can allow you to use discarded batteries to power your vehicle if your patient enough for them to process)

No, I am not trying to crap on your parade, just trying to keep all your bases covered so when you try your sucessfull enough that I decide to do it too

We will have to wait and see what type of EV range you get and if you can use the unit with a heads up instantaneous mileage monitor to balance EV power with motor power to optimize your mileage through all the hills and speed.

Good Luck
Ryan

[Nerys]

sadly none of that will happen with my little project. The only "gauge" I plan to have is a volt meter and maybe an amp meter. I can not afford controllers monitors desulfators etc.. I plan to use junk yard batteries until I can afford enough NIMH batteries to make this work (if it proves successful with the leads first) Simple on off control. The only way I will know how well its working is when I calculate my MPG at the end of the week :-) Every other week if this works as well as I hope :-) hehehe

I do not see how a trailer battery can kill range with its own weight otherwise a battery EV could never work from the get go. UNLESS your using an unusually heavy trailer.

IF I had a pure EV and wanted to make a battery trailer I would make it 100% aluminum and PRECISELY as strong as it needed to be to hold the batteries safetly IE very very light.

Even one of those cheap $300 4x8 trailers would be too large and too heavy. I would want it light enough that I could pick it up with one hand (no batteries)

If your using a regular trailer then yes I can see that causing a problem eating up its own range. I also would want it small short and low enough to be inside the aerodynamic shadow of the towing vehicle so its add no aero penalties.

Building a trailer is not that hard and in my state at least very easy to register and make legal.

One other problem is that as you go heavier you may exceed the mass limit of your electric motor IE you might just need a larger motor to take advantage of the larger (and heavier) battery pack.

BTW I will kill to have a citicar :-) Very neat looking cars!

BTW I noticed your remark about EV range. To clarify I am not counting on ANY ev range at all. I would consider myself very very lucky if I managed to get my hands on an electric motor capable of opearting my van on electric alone. I am going on the assumption that its just going to "assist" my gas motor. My best hope is enough power to go from say 0-20-25 on EV power alone so I can turn off the engine as I come to a stop and not restart the engine again till I get to around 25 mph. but I think that is wishful thinking :-) I just do not have that kind of budget.

I might not be able to use any of these cheap motors on ebay as they all seem to be 200-300v motors ! I can not afford the cost and mass of so many batteries. :-(

[MechEngVT]

This is a viable idea although I'm pretty sure nobody has gone full-scale commercial with it.

BTW sorry to be late to the party but just joined. Here's a page that I googled up because I had heard of systems like this before:

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...hybrid_feature

It's called a "through-the-road" hybrid, and the article claims it's patented by DaimlerChrysler, though given the change in that company since the article was written in 2000 I'm not sure who owns that patent now. Not that a patent will stop an individual from knocking the idea off on their own vehicle, but somebody holding out for a company to make a retrofit kit might have a *very* long wait.

The Durango used an 89 hp motor on the front wheels and the ICE through the rear wheels taking advantage of the standard 4x4 architecture.

[jonr]

Good question - is there a freewheel/ratchet that is good for around 20HP that can be easily attached to an electric motor?

I suppose the alternative would be an electric clutch.

[john_bud]

Interesting idea. If you get a live rear axle from a RWD car or truck and mount the electric motor to the pinion (where the drive shaft normally would go) with a 1 way clutch that would be a fairly simple set up.


If it is a good idea (only you know if it's worth it), you could really get better mpg's by adding a steam engine / generator combo in the back of the van to charge the batteries. The steam would come from the engine exhaust heat. Remember 2/3 to 3/4 of the energy from the gas is waste heat. You would need to make up a double wall insulated exhaust pipe to maximize the heat transfer from the engine and do a few other things, but could easily recapture 5-10 hp maybe more.

jb