Low & Slow's Ninja 250 project

[Kincurd]

4 bags of groceries and 70mph in a headwind is asking a bit too much, for me at least. But that's purely personal preference and my own riding habits over the years. I'm ALL for the comfort, safety and fuel efficiency though.

To me, safety means my legs are free to swing out; as opposed to those Matsu/Bonneville feet holes or worse. I had to do that once in my life, motocross style. Hey, once is enough. I think I'm okay with having slots for the legs. If you do it right it should have minimal effect on drag.

The designs I came up with for my 125cc scooter do have me reclining, and may leave room for the groceries, but it's not a priority. When all is said and done, if it gets 70mph in a headwind, that'd be a nice bonus.

But I drive in Colorado, up into the mountains all the time. With my corolla, I can stay in 4th gear and go 60 the whole way, even with the hills (slight lie there. There's one or two hills in the course of 300 miles that I'll have to lower gears in). That's 5mph below the speed limit most of the way, but it saves me 2-3 gallons of fuel over 100 miles.

I could make the car go faster, but I simply don't want to. Being able to use cruise control for most of that is nice. 5th gear doesn't see much use for those trips, either. Overall, it's the safest and most economical way. I'd have to be lane hopping to go faster; and even then, they use pace cars in the winter to slow us down (but I mainly do this trip in the summer).

Oh I kind of went off on a ramble there. I really like what Vetter is doing, but I'll only think about participating if my vehicle just so happens to meet qualifications after it meets my own personal requirements.

You'd be surprised how much I can fit in the back of my whitewater kayak, so it would stand to reason that the grocery thing isn't out of the question. The speed thing; well, I hope someone achieves it with a gas-only vehicle (or even diesel) @470+ mpg and posts a how-to!

[bschloop]

under last year's rules, the groceries fit (just barely) into fred's streamliner. he had slings in the front and rear of the shell that managed that. This year he will probably need to make a few modifications so that they sit upright, and don't get "squished" to meet Vetter requirements as he has clarified that rule. Fred also told me that for him, riding bent forward like on a sport bike is more comfortable. I personally like to lay on a sleeping bag on my tank for long trips, as upright seating leaves me with a numb backside, and lower back stiffness.

4 bags of groceries and 70mph in a headwind is asking a bit too much,

I agree that 70mph seems a bit much. I like the large amount of storage, but I typically avoid expressways anyway. Hopefully this means that my actual driving mileage will exceed my "Vetter Conditions" mileage.

[sendler]

Minimum of 70 mph is a must for a real world cross country vehicle even if you generally choose to run slower most of the time. There will be certain traffic situations on a cross country ride where 70 will keep you barely on the road in the slow lane. 70 is not very fast for a top speed.

[Kincurd]

Originally Posted by sendler

Minimum of 70 mph is a must for a real world cross country vehicle even if you generally choose to run slower most of the time. There will be certain traffic situations on a cross country ride where 70 will keep you barely on the road in the slow lane. 70 is not very fast for a top speed.

But real world miles are daily commuting miles, and most of us don't go cross country, daily.

When I was in Southeast Asia, I hardly ever saw bikes even as big as a 250. I think 150cc was the biggest.

I also kind of have to wonder, if Craig is so bent on saving America and fuel at the same time, why he makes no mention of obesity and the over all energy savings we'd have if we didn't consume excess food; not to mention, the fuel savings you'd have if you aren't overweight. If Craig & Co were on a normal diet, they might only need 2-3 bags of groceries instead of 4.

[bschloop]

I didn't mean that the bike shouldn't be capable of 70 mph, if you need to use the freeway at all, your bike should be able to cruise at 70 which means a top speed closer to 85. I just meant that as a motorcyclist I am more likely to choose winding 55mph roads than freeways. This was reflected in the Mid Ohio challenge last year, as we only took the freeway for about 8 miles. Craig seems to want to be able to get 100mpg on a long ride averaging 70mph, as seen by his Las Vegas to Barstow Challenge. 177mi all 70mph, and they were speeding part of the time. this seems to me more like rushing to get somewhere than a nice ride.

[sendler]

Originally Posted by Kincurd

But real world miles are daily commuting miles,

I commute on I81 and could never do it safely on a bike with less than 70 mph of useable cruise speed. I average 68 and follow along in the slow lane.

[ecofreak]

Originally Posted by sendler

I commute on I81 and could never do it safely on a bike with less than 70 mph of useable cruise speed. I average 68 and follow along in the slow lane.

As long as there are still cars on the road, and furthermore a bell curve of drivers that includes idiots, morons, and dumbasses at the left end, it's necessary for most people to at least be able to cruise at 75 mph. In a perfect world, we'd really enforce the speed limit, but it's just as illegal to go over as it is to "disrupt the flow of traffic".

Although I do appreciate Vetter's fairings and low MPG contests, I also appreciate the idea of biodiesel motorcycles. Once oil is over $80 a barrel for the long haul, biodiesel will be economically solvent.

The problem with diesel bikes is, just like with diesel cars, you run out of gears and lose all power above 4k rpm. Fairings and more intuitive engine design will be the main sources of improvement.

low&slow: I appreciate your work! Your efforts will help evolve vehicles in the US and elsewhere.

[Kincurd]

Originally Posted by sendler

I commute on I81 and could never do it safely on a bike with less than 70 mph of useable cruise speed. I average 68 and follow along in the slow lane.

I mean on average, though.

Granted, for my own commute, I have the option of getting on the freeway and hitting 70 for part of it, but choose not to.

I'd venture to guess that most commuters in the world don't commute daily on roads that allow them to go 70mph, whether it be because of traffic, or a 55mph speed limit.

But anywho, any ecomodding is good ecomodding, and I totally agree that you should go with the flow of traffic; for me, 60mph is still plenty fast for most of the way I was talking about earlier (through the mountains). My scooter may one day be able to go 70mph, but I doubt it would do it efficiently in a 30mph headwind, up a hill.

Also, while we're struggling to get 100mpg at 70mph, got to remember we got 470mpg back in 85, at 55mph.

I'm trying to figure out how slow the acceleration was though. I wonder if it took Matsu 5 minutes to get to 55mph or something crazy.

[Grant-53]

The amount of food required is directly related to the number sons at home. More cargo volume may mean fewer trips.

[beatr911]

This whole aerodynamic motorcycle project is just another exercise to lay the groundwork to improve motorcycles from what they are. It applies to you if you go 55 or 80 and want to reduce fuel consumption.

We already agree that good aero is what makes the capablity of 100mph airspeed possible on a low output engine. If you don't need 100mph airspeed, that's okay. My underpowered truck goes faster than the speed limit also, but it is really nice to have the ability to modestly accelerate above the limit for passing or whatnot - and it's not much of a mpg penalty. BTW it rarely exceeds the speed limit.

Craig instigated making weather protection fairings mainstream in the '70s so people could ride more due to being more comfortable. Now he is instigating the next step, aerodynamic fairings to add fuel economy and storage.

I, and probably most people, don't think truly aerodynamic fairings will ever catch on in a big way. They need some sort of catalyst to make them cool before they ever "catch on". Even then, it will still be a subset of a small splinter of the motoring public.

I love the discussion we see here and the amount of traffic it's getting.