Low & Slow's Ninja 250 project

[woodsrat]

Originally Posted by beatr911

Vic, I'm thinking the lower speeds of the Ohio event are probably more real world, for more people that Craigs intended 70-75mph...

Dunno about the speeds being "low" in Ohio. We were hammering through the rolling hills and Mr. Vetter and I, bringing up the rear, were having our own little road race (whatta hoot that was to be running along with a legend!!!). To maintain the speeds we were running through the hills the 250's had to be running pretty hard to keep up that pace.

It was normal for the way I ride, though. When I get out to ride economy is the last thing on my mind. If I can do it cheaper I'm all for it so long as the fun factor remains.

I'm finding that I have just as much or more fun backroading on my XT-225 as I do the WoodsWing and get almost 80 MPG doing it. I'll have to do a ride with fuel conservation in mind and see what the bike will do. On a road ride around the circumference of Kentucky it consistently got 80+ MPG.

[bschloop]

First of all, congratulations to you Vic. it was great to finally meet you, and that was an amazing result. it's fun to get to hang out with a bunch of crazies just like me.

Secondly, this ride was by no means slow, but it was probably slowER than the Quail challenge, although there was a lot more accelerating and decelerating. I do think that all the twisties, and stop signs favored Vic and myself as we were probably the two lightest bikes.

[low&slow]

Hi, Below is information Alan , Craig and I are putting together to compare the side by side performance of Alan's and my Ninja 250 streamliners as we crossed the country to the Ohio Vetter Challenge.



Beginning of trip from Livermore California to Ohio:

Alan’s Ninja 250: loaded down with gear, clothes, tools, and rider weighed 660 pounds.

Vic‘s Ninja 250: Loaded with the same 598 pounds

Alan's weighed 62 pounds more


July 13,2012: Leave for Ohio Vetter fuel economy contest.

Alan’s Ninja 250: 103.4 mpg

Vic‘s Ninja 250: 72.7 mpg

July 14, 2012: Nevada to Wendover UT

Alan’s Ninja 250: 92.041mpg

Vic‘s Ninja 250: 92.7mpg

July 15, 2012: Nevada to Wyoming high winds, hard rain climbing mountains

Alan’s Ninja 250: 82.388 mpg

Vic’s Ninja: 68.3 mpg

July 16, 2012: Across Nebraska at high freeway speeds some winds.

Alan’s Ninja 250: 93.66 mpg

Vic’s Ninja: 58.9 mpg

July 17, 2012: Nebraska to Iowa rolling hills at various speeds.

Alan’s Ninja 250: 88.412 MPG:

Vic’s Ninja: 68.6mpg

July 18, 2012: Iowa to Morton, Ill. Flat country side at 70-plus speeds. Very hot

Alan’s Ninja 250: 95.807 mpg

Vic’s Ninja: 69.6 MPG:

July 19, 2012: Illinois To Belleville, Ohio. Riders meeting.


Alan’s Ninja 250: 103.045 mpg


Vic’s Ninja: 87.9 mpg


Alan's Ninja: Total trip out: ???

Vic’s Ninja: Total trip out: mostly riding with Alan 2891 mi./39.44 gal= 73.3 mpg



Alan's Ninja: Total solo trip back: ???

Vic’s Ninja: Total solo trip back to Cal: 3107.4 mi./42.31 gal= 73.4 mpg


Needlessly to say, Alan's streamliner did much better on the trip than my bike which struggled with overheating, occassional fuel starvation and vapor lock.
However my bike did run very well in Ohio and during the competition.

The pace at the 2012 Ohio Vetter Challenge wasn't as fast as we ran in Carmel 2012 but it was not slow by any means. I think it was a more realistic pace in which to evaluate fuel efficiency. The course ( lots of hills, stop signs, not much freeway ), weather conditions, and relatively slower pace helped to produce optimal results for my bike, Ben's and Scott's.

Now that I'm rested up and feeling like a human being again, I started servicing my bike after its long, tough journey. I checked the valve lash yesterday ( no adjustment needed !) , cleaned the air filter and found a vacuum leak. The tires are still looking good.
This morning I took the bike for a short spin to warm up the engine prior to doing an oil change. It ran great after fixing the vacuum leak until it clattered to a halt on the backroads of the Livermore wine country. My chain had a broken link. I got it back home this afternoon and will be shopping for a new chain tomorrow. I still have to replace some leaky fork seals and change the oil and filter. Thank goodness I didn't have this happen during the trip, it could have been a very big problem.

[redyaris]

This data points to a problem with very short runs [under 100 miles] for the vetter challenge. I dought there is an easy solution but we might want to have one run that is on the order of 4 or more hours run time at 70 mph [250 miles long] this would make the margin of error smaller, although the ride would be tougher.
I am working on having the VT500 ready [ 87 mpg or better...] for the Los Vgas to Barstow Vetter Challenge in november... such are my plans anyway.

[bschloop]

we might want to have one run that is on the order of 4 or more hours run time at 70 mph [250 miles long] this would make the margin of error smaller, although the ride would be tougher.

That would be quite the run, but it would not really reflect most people's typical riding. Maybe we should do 2 100mi runs on consecutive days with the bikes on lockdown between, so that we have to include a cold start. that would get us a better average.

[thomason2wheels]

Originally Posted by alvaro84

The question is, what is lugging? The only approach I can utilize here is that she'll complain when she doesn't like it. This is why I usually avoid using her at those <2.5k range (except for low gears) and am gentle with the throttle at low revs. Over 3-3.5k I can gratify my passion and do aggressive pulses

I know people at f650.com who say never to use this engine under 4k - this is what I call extreme babying by not babying and I think it's highly superstitious and it seems she can cope with my typical 2.5-3.5k range on the long term too.

My vstrom will run just fine under light load at 2500 rpm in top gear. Lean on it much at low revs and it will complain though. Above 4k in top gear full throttle works with no complaint, in between requires good judgement with throttle to avoid complaints. I think many riders assume that it is lugging the engine to run below that rpm, but if you are careful with how much load you apply, u end up with a much wider usable rpm range and the possibility for fuel economy improvements. I have found the ninja once fully warmed up will lope along at 2500-3000 rpm in top gear at light load and be happy, but it clearly pulls harder and smoother at full throttle from 4k on up. I believe 4500 or so is where the torque curve starts to flatten out.

[thomason2wheels]

Originally Posted by beatr911

This whole aerodynamic motorcycle project is just another exercise to lay the groundwork to improve motorcycles from what they are. It applies to you if you go 55 or 80 and want to reduce fuel consumption.

We already agree that good aero is what makes the capablity of 100mph airspeed possible on a low output engine. If you don't need 100mph airspeed, that's okay. My underpowered truck goes faster than the speed limit also, but it is really nice to have the ability to modestly accelerate above the limit for passing or whatnot - and it's not much of a mpg penalty. BTW it rarely exceeds the speed limit.

Craig instigated making weather protection fairings mainstream in the '70s so people could ride more due to being more comfortable. Now he is instigating the next step, aerodynamic fairings to add fuel economy and storage.

I, and probably most people, don't think truly aerodynamic fairings will ever catch on in a big way. They need some sort of catalyst to make them cool before they ever "catch on". Even then, it will still be a subset of a small splinter of the motoring public.

I love the discussion we see here and the amount of traffic it's getting.

Ii agree with everything you say. And as i rather shamefacedly admit that i find it a bit difficult to embrace the full aero look from a styling standpoint and partially for being thought of as the neighborhood kook, i can easily embrace the driving behavior modification that goes with improved fuel efficiency. I may eventually have the resources to do some serious aero mods, but for now tightening the nut behind the wheel is simple, effective and free. The price is right. And i dont have to appear to be the nutcase my so assures me i am. :-)

[low&slow]

Hi, I hadn't posted in a while and wanted to let folks know whats up with me and my project. My dad died after a long battle with lung cancer. Fortunately I was able to drive and visit with him before he slipped into a terminal coma. I've also been busy working a lot on my part time job with a safety training company which involves a lot of travel.
I haven't worked on my bike much since getting back from the Vetter Challenge in Ohio. I replaced the chain after it failed and have focused most of my efforts on improving the cooling airflow through the front end. I tested my new ducting today and it seemed to be cooling better though it wasn't a very hot day(~85*F.) Nonetheless, it seemed better to be working better.
I also refilled today and had a pretty good tankfill: 379.8 miles/3.41 gal.=111 mpg.
The Las Vegas to Barstow Vetter Challenge will be on November 18 so most of my efforts will be ensuring that the Ninja is roadworthy for the 500+ mile trip to Las Vegas and that my streamliner is running well and hopefully is competitive.

[beatr911]

Sorry to hear about your Dad Vic. Those are difficult times.

Be safe. Hope all goes well for the ride. I won't make this year but planning on riding in 2013.

[low&slow]

Garth, Thanks you for your kind thoughts, my family and I appreciate it very much. We will miss you in Las Vegas, you contributed a lot to the success of last year Vegas Vetter Challenge. Hope to see you soon.