Morelli Shape

[Jim Bullis]

robertsmalls,

Lies do not work for me even if they are motivated by desirable objectives.

But I do go ahead and think about the objectives, and shifting from oil to coal has some economic and geopolitical merit. But then making coal as a fuel cost effectively ten times what it does now is a prescription for a depresssion. You should read the EPA study report from last month where they pronounce that a CO2 'capture' cost of $95 per ton of CO2 is expected (top end of range) for what they call a technically feasible process. And just the act of releasing such a study must have a freezing affect on industrial planning activities for the basic industry of our developed world.

[miket]

oops my equation should have been 33.7KWh/gal x $0.20/KWh = $6.74/gal lol

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

Shame on all those who actually learned physics, where the Second Law of Thermodynamics clearly tells that a kWhr of electricity can produce a kWhr of heat but a kWhr of heat can not produce anything close to a kWhr of electricity, but fail to speak up in the face of this widely used trickery in promotion of electric vehicles.

The equivalency is a mathematical conversion. There is no losses in a mathematical conversion. You are getting your knickers in a twist about this, and I don't understand why.

Of course, if you do an *actual* conversion, there will be losses. But we are not doing actual conversions. So, again -- the energy contained in a typical gallon of gasoline IS EQUIVALENT TO about 33.4 (or 33.7) kWh of electricity. This is a way to compare the energy contained in each. It is NOT an actual conversion of one to the other!

The reason they (the X-Prize folks) was that we are all accustomed to gallons of gasoline. Nothing more than that. Nothing sinister or sneaky. They have to convert everything to one common denominator -- so they can decide/show which is more efficient.

An ICE powered car doesn't have to account for the energy it takes to actually produce that gasoline, so why should the EV have to account for the energy it takes to produce the electricity? Can you please answer that question? Pretty please, with sugar on top?

[miket]

Do you think i should pay $6.74/gal equivalent for an electric vehicle? Lets start a poll and ask people on the street.

[Jim Bullis]

Neil,

You get about 11 kWhr out of 33 kWhr of heat. You must understand that this is a bad deal. And to pretend that you get 33 kWhr of electricity out of 33 kWhr of heat is a lie. And it is a lie with far reaching implications.

If you do not understand that like forms of energy can be reasonably compared and different forms might not be comparable, then we will never get anywhere with the discussion.

[Frank Lee]

Originally Posted by miket

Do you think i should pay $6.74/gal equivalent for an electric vehicle? Lets start a poll and ask people on the street.

Is that an accurate number?!? Really?!? I pay 9 cents/kwh so you are off by, oh, more than 100%.

[RobertSmalls]

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

Can you please answer that question? Pretty please, with sugar on top?

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...tml#post183006

Patrick provides a serious response in post #39 of the above-linked. Neil, as you know very well, one can do a life-cycle analysis for BOTH gasoline and electricity and come up with a more reasonable mpge figure than BTU equivalence.

[miket]

The only time their close to equivalent is when your sitting in your car defrosting the windows.

[miket]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

Is that an accurate number?!? Really?!? I pay 9 cents/kwh so you are off by, oh, more than 100%.

Electric Power Monthly - Average Retail Price of Electricity to Ultimate Customers by End-Use Sector, by State


I guess im glad i dont live in Hawaii.

edit: i just noticed they give a huge discount for the transportation(trains) not sure if that would or could be applied to electric vehicles. My point was that when you inflate the numbers to look good they can also look bad.

[Frank Lee]

So you're providing a table which clearly shows wildly varying prices for electricity and simultaneously calling for a price-based conversion system because that would be more accurate?