Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > EcoModding Central
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 03-03-2015, 08:21 PM   #21 (permalink)
Ol' Skooler
 
jcp123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Tyler, TX
Posts: 1,176

Beater Echo - '00 Toyota Echo
90 day: 42.67 mpg (US)

Hondizzle - '97 Honda Civic DX
Team Honda
90 day: 46.55 mpg (US)
Thanks: 66
Thanked 198 Times in 169 Posts
By the math, should be a 3% difference. But EVERY hack on every forum always claims a 10% diff...

__________________



'97 Honda Civic DX Coupe 5MT
'00 Echo - dead 2/17
'14 Chrysler Town + Country - the better half's car
'67 Mustang Convertible - gone 1/17
  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 04-11-2015, 08:53 PM   #22 (permalink)
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Everett WA
Posts: 508
Thanks: 67
Thanked 164 Times in 124 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by litesong View Post
All 3 cars show mpg increases for E0 of 8%, 7% & 5%...... 87 octane E10 has ethanol molecules that average 114 octane.... ALSO, the gasoline molecules must average 84 octane, IF an average octane of 87 is to be created, while blending 10% ethanol.

This is simple: gasoline engine engineers designed 87 octane gasoline engines to run best with 87 octane 100% E0. Ethanol engine engineers designed 114 octane ethanol engines to run best with 114 octane 100% ethanol. Ethanol/gasoline blends run neither gasoline or ethanol engines best.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcp123 View Post
By the math, should be a 3% difference. But EVERY hack on every forum always claims a 10% diff...
Since I only claim 8% to 5% E0/E10 mpg differences, am I LESS of a hack?
Good ethanol engine engineers designed high 114 octane, high compression ratio(16:1) ethanol engines to get the most energy AND work out of 100% ethanol. Ethanol, as used(but NOT burned efficiently) in low 87 octane, low compression ratio (9:1 to 12:1) gasoline engines, cannot give up energy & its work, nearly as efficiently. That is why adding only 10% ethanol to gasoline, lowers mpg 8% to 5%.

Already stated, is that 87 octane E0 is 87 octane(& is NOT BASE octane 84 mixed with high octane premium to average 87 octane). But 87 octane E10 is a mis-brewed mix of 114 octane ethanol AND 84 octane gasoline molecules, neither of which perform optimally in 87 octane gasoline engines designed to burn 87 octane gasoline at its best.

Last edited by litesong; 04-11-2015 at 10:16 PM..
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2015, 10:34 PM   #23 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,927
Thanks: 877
Thanked 2,023 Times in 1,304 Posts
10% ethanol fuel has been a fact of life here for around a decade or more. I tried E0 in my 2011 Fiesta and at 80 cents more a gallon and 60 miles out of the way the mileage needed to increase by a little over 25% at that time when it was pushing $4 a gallon versus $3.20 for regular E10.

In sealed systems I have seen E10 go over a year without issues and my Honda pressure washer started fine after sitting for close to 6 months all with no additives.

E10 is one of the reasons we are importing much less than the 50+% of the crude oil we were importing before the mandates. I am neither and ardent advocate or opponent, and I understand the principles involved in choosing that renewable option, over crude from unpredictable sources.

Most EFI cars have no problem with E10, my 23 year old Sentra runs fine on E10, in fact the cheapest E10 I can find, without a hiccup, but EFI systems are much better equipped to handle the lower energy content than carbs and non feedback systems.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2015, 07:44 AM   #24 (permalink)
Needs More Duct Tape
 
MPGomatic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: the swamps of jersey
Posts: 157

Slambo - '99 Honda Civic HX
90 day: 44.21 mpg (US)
Thanks: 63
Thanked 82 Times in 43 Posts
It's great to have fuel choice for old cars, trucks, lawn tractors and yard tools.

I'm on my second tank of 87 octane E0. Not sure if I'll go for a third.

Slambo saw a jump on the first tank from 39.7 to 42.8, but that may be partially due to the warmer temps.

Slambo! - #AintFuelin (Honda Civic) | Fuelly

E0 is not available in NJ. I have to drive nearly three hours round trip to Allentown, PA to fill up. It's $1 per gallon more than the least expensive top tier 87 octane E10 is locally.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2015, 03:00 PM   #25 (permalink)
wdb
lurker's apprentice
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: the Perimeter
Posts: 912

PlainJane - '12 Toyota Tacoma Base 4WD Access Cab
90 day: 20.98 mpg (US)
Thanks: 474
Thanked 213 Times in 162 Posts
The only reason E10 is cheaper than E0 is subsidization. So we pay less for gas, more for food, and our tax dollars go to enrich corn farmers instead of other activities where they might do more good.

As for importing oil - we don't need to do that anymore. Whether or not we should is another question. But it can no longer be said that adding ethanol to gasoline is reducing our dependency on foreign oil; technically we have no such dependency.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2015, 06:12 PM   #26 (permalink)
EcoModding Lurker
 
MisterMundane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Rural Canada
Posts: 90

#StreetFocus - '08 Ford Focus SE
90 day: 33.85 mpg (US)
Thanks: 5
Thanked 9 Times in 5 Posts
like many stated, to many variables between different cars and engines to give an accurate MPG loss with e10. it will effect some more than others.

now, e85, will drop MPG compared to e10 or e0 in any car. but, if your car is tuned for it, and the fuel system can handle it, you can have major performance increases. A buddy has a turbo charged Cobalt and runs E85, makes over 400 WHP with it. if he tuned on straight gas hed be making a lot less.

that being said, Im not a fan of ethanol at all mostly because i ride a 2 stroke sled and its hell on them things. even my carbed 4 stroke quad, I have to drain all the gas from the carb before putting it away for the winter or it will just make a mess in there.
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2015, 12:37 PM   #27 (permalink)
wdb
lurker's apprentice
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: the Perimeter
Posts: 912

PlainJane - '12 Toyota Tacoma Base 4WD Access Cab
90 day: 20.98 mpg (US)
Thanks: 474
Thanked 213 Times in 162 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by roosterk0031 View Post
Ethanol subsidy expired years ago [...]
Direct subsidies yes. Hidden subsidies no.
Renewable Fuel Standard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2015, 01:10 PM   #28 (permalink)
Corporate imperialist
 
oil pan 4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: NewMexico (USA)
Posts: 10,329

Sub - '84 Chevy Diesel Suburban C10
SUV
90 day: 19.5 mpg (US)

camaro - '85 Chevy Camaro Z28

Riot - '03 Kia Rio POS
Team Hyundai
90 day: 30.21 mpg (US)

Bug - '01 VW Beetle GLSturbo
90 day: 26.43 mpg (US)

Sub2500 - '86 GMC Suburban C2500
90 day: 11.95 mpg (US)

Snow flake - '11 Nissan Leaf SL
SUV
90 day: 141.63 mpg (US)
Thanks: 248
Thanked 3,318 Times in 2,616 Posts
Is there an MPG difference?
It depends on the vehicle.
The 4.6L gas murdering town car we had could not tell the difference between E10 and E0.
The 1.8l turbo in the bug gets worse MPG on regular, I only have E0 RUG here. Comparing E10 mid grade or premium gas and E0 RUG is not a valid comparison.
The Hyundai always gets better MPG on the E0 gas than the E10.
__________________
1984 chevy suburban, custom made 6.5L diesel turbocharged with a Garrett T76 and Holset HE351VE, 22:1 compression 13psi of intercooled boost.
1989 firebird mostly stock. Aside from the 6-speed manual trans, corvette gen 5 front brakes, 1LE drive shaft, 4th Gen disc brake fbody rear end.
2011 leaf SL, white, portable 240v CHAdeMO, trailer hitch, new batt as of 2014.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2015, 01:32 PM   #29 (permalink)
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Everett WA
Posts: 508
Thanks: 67
Thanked 164 Times in 124 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by wdb View Post
The only reason E10 is cheaper than E0 is subsidization.
The EPA & "ethanol in gasoline industry" forced & suppressed E0 to rarity. E0 is impossible to get in most big cities. Also, penalties can be imposed if oil companies go short on 100% ethanol-free gasoline to blend with ethanol. Lately, EPA may be light on this last requirement. Anyhow, E0 rarity drives up E0 price.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2015, 01:54 PM   #30 (permalink)
Needs More Duct Tape
 
MPGomatic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: the swamps of jersey
Posts: 157

Slambo - '99 Honda Civic HX
90 day: 44.21 mpg (US)
Thanks: 63
Thanked 82 Times in 43 Posts
I ended my E0 testing after two tanks. The MPG gain was near expected (in the 3% range). The financial/time cost (+$1 per gallon/3 hour round trip to fill up) did not justify continuing the test. I will revisit it at a later date.

E0 is fabulous for old lawn mowers, weed wackers, motorboats, and classic cars. But it offers no cost advantage for modern vehicles (that have been designed to run on E10).

  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread


Thread Tools




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com