My 2003 Renault Clio 1.5 dCi - 3.7L/100KM TANK!

[seifrob]

Originally Posted by HowGudAmI

Mine has the K9K 702 - which one is yours? I see your car is a lot newer than mine.

As for that I cannot be sure, i am just a BFU concerning cars. K9K almost sure, but furher specification I wiil have to look for (hopefully it is written somwhere under the hood?).

About OBD2 readers I believe its cars ECU that determines what can OBD2 scanner read or access, as it sends data out. I have tried one OBD2 adaptor and hanfdul of different software apps with same results - my ECU reports speed, RPM, coolant temp, fuel rail pressure, turbo boost, engine load and thats all (i think - I am sitting home). there is a widget that shows all available sensors to you in Torque pro). I believe that Scangauge will report exactly the same data, as it is all my ECU sends out. But perhaps some more fortunate user will confirm this (I believe Piwoslaw has both??)

-- the instant MPG readout and average MPG is way off in my Torque pro app too, but it is useful to get instant feedback. If it shows 5,3 l/100 km instaed of 7,2 l/100 km, I know I am driving more efficient even if the figures are way off. So I didn´t even bother to calibrate it ;-)

[HowGudAmI]

Originally Posted by seifrob

As for that I cannot be sure, i am just a BFU concerning cars. K9K almost sure, but furher specification I wiil have to look for (hopefully it is written somwhere under the hood?).

About OBD2 readers I believe its cars ECU that determines what can OBD2 scanner read or access, as it sends data out. I have tried one OBD2 adaptor and hanfdul of different software apps with same results - my ECU reports speed, RPM, coolant temp, fuel rail pressure, turbo boost, engine load and thats all (i think - I am sitting home). there is a widget that shows all available sensors to you in Torque pro). I believe that Scangauge will report exactly the same data, as it is all my ECU sends out. But perhaps some more fortunate user will confirm this (I believe Piwoslaw has both??)

-- the instant MPG readout and average MPG is way off in my Torque pro app too, but it is useful to get instant feedback. If it shows 5,3 l/100 km instaed of 7,2 l/100 km, I know I am driving more efficient even if the figures are way off. So I didn´t even bother to calibrate it ;-)

You should be able to work out what engine you have based on the power output and age.

Yeah I know the ECU puts out what it puts out, and the app uses that data, however the MPG that torque shows is a calculation based off of its interpretation of the data (AFAIK).

I decided to try the fuel economy torque plugin today, ( https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...lEconomy&hl=en ) - but it still didnt work, here is its interpretation of a journey that was mostly 56mph sitting behind a fast lorry (with slow town driving at the start and finish):


Now, the presentation from the app is lovely, I really liked it - but its figures are still wrong - I estimate that along that journey I was actually achieving something in the 70's or 80's (imperial/UK MPG).

Torques standard read out was closer at 60 UK MPG - but still quite a way off!

If I turn on Torques 'enhanced' calculation, I would expect it to show something like 40 UK MPG (I haven't used the enhanced calculation much since I first tried it for a couple of miles as it was even worse, hence the estimate here).

I am not confident that any of these read outs are giving me an accurate picture... I know you say that I can still use the readings to know when I am doing better - but I think (in my case) that won't always be right... because the figures seem to be much closer to the real picture in stop start town driving - which casts doubt over the whole calculations in my mind...

I have used Torque successfully in the past on a petrol car (of a similar age) where it was consistently 10% out.

Perhaps my car isn't pushing out enough data to calculate properly?

[seifrob]

your guess is as good as mine, but I would second that. I have read somewhere on Torque forum that diesel support is not complete (but i t was years ago). I assume that MPG calculation is based on engine load, RPMs and injection pulse width and Torque cannot calculate it properly for diesels not having enough data. In my opinion this would be better candidate for trying:https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...eeo.rtadvanced as it *should* access more data. But I doubt Torque can handle it other than to display.

last "official" answer on official Torque Pro forum i have found is silence. (see: Forums — » Torque OBD ECU Scanner » Torque Discussion / Ideas » MPG Calculation for Diesel PUTorque)

(BTW: you dashboard looks very similar to mine - and in previous versions of Logan there was instant MPG readout option on that odometer display. But around 2009 they cancelled it "because it was distracting drivers too much - as they told me. Don´t you have one? (I have just average MPG, always 0,3 l/100 km too optimistic.)

[HowGudAmI]

Originally Posted by seifrob

your guess is as good as mine, but I would second that. I have read somewhere on Torque forum that diesel support is not complete (but i t was years ago). I assume that MPG calculation is based on engine load, RPMs and injection pulse width and Torque cannot calculate it properly for diesels not having enough data. In my opinion this would be better candidate for trying:https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...eeo.rtadvanced as it *should* access more data. But I doubt Torque can handle it other than to display.

last "official" answer on official Torque Pro forum i have found is silence. (see: Forums — » Torque OBD ECU Scanner » Torque Discussion / Ideas » MPG Calculation for Diesel PUTorque)

(BTW: you dashboard looks very similar to mine - and in previous versions of Logan there was instant MPG readout option on that odometer display. But around 2009 they cancelled it "because it was distracting drivers too much - as they told me. Don´t you have one? (I have just average MPG, always 0,3 l/100 km too optimistic.)

It looks like that extra-renault sensors app does not influence MPG read outs... it is also advertised for newer cars (Clio III onwards - mine is a Clio II) so doubt it would work.

My car doesn't have it's own MPG read out... but the some of the higher trim models did (though I believe they still didn't do instant - just trip).

I am now wondering if my volumetric efficiency could have anything to do with it... I cant find any specific figures for my car/engine, but have read that turbo diesels can have an efficiency at and over 100% (it is currently set at the default 85%).

I might post up in the torque forums and see if I can get a response...

EDIT: Thread posted, http://torque-bhp.com/forums/?wpforu...topic&t=6498.0 - let's see what happens.

[oldtamiyaphile]

I have five different fuel economy gadgets and they all have issues one way or another.

In the case of diesels and my unthrottled petrol engines, you will likely find that absolute accuracy is simply not possible via OBD instruments. Remember that a diesel is constantly changing it's AFR and this is not typically reported via OBD, so your gauge just guesses at it.

I believe some of the cheaper units may just assume stoich and rely on user calibration, which will be way off if you normally drive in the city then go on a long trip.

Having said that, a lot of TDI owners have SGII's and on my own TDI I've had good results with a calibrated SGII. SGII is expensive and in some ways basic, but it works really well.

[oldtamiyaphile]

Originally Posted by HowGudAmI

My car doesn't have it's own MPG read out... but the some of the higher trim models did (though I believe they still didn't do instant - just trip).

The best way to accurate numbers is to tap into the factory economy signal with an MPGuino or UTComp. Your car will likely have this signal even if it doesn't have the display (that's the case with VWs).

[HowGudAmI]

Originally Posted by oldtamiyaphile

I have five different fuel economy gadgets and they all have issues one way or another.

In the case of diesels and my unthrottled petrol engines, you will likely find that absolute accuracy is simply not possible via OBD instruments. Remember that a diesel is constantly changing it's AFR and this is not typically reported via OBD, so your gauge just guesses at it.

I believe some of the cheaper units may just assume stoich and rely on user calibration, which will be way off if you normally drive in the city then go on a long trip.

Having said that, a lot of TDI owners have SGII's and on my own TDI I've had good results with a calibrated SGII. SGII is expensive and in some ways basic, but it works really well.

Thanks for the info - it's a shame that cars don't just output the rate at which fuel is flowing and the current speed for instant MPG - and the total fuel and miles covered for trip MPG. I guess that would be too simple.

I am not too keen on spending £100+ on SG II which will still be an approximation (even if a bit better than Torque).

Originally Posted by oldtamiyaphile

The best way to accurate numbers is to tap into the factory economy signal with an MPGuino or UTComp. Your car will likely have this signal even if it doesn't have the display (that's the case with VWs).

Now that sounds more like it.

The UTComp 3 looks fantastic - and I could get it for circa £60 delivered to my door - half the cost of a Scan Gauge.

Also, I am sure I could find somewhere very OEM looking to mount it too.

The only problem I guess (and its a pretty big one) would be tapping in to the OEM MPG signal... firstly, I have no idea whether the ECU will be activated to send that out, and secondly, I have no idea where.

My concern would be that if the signal is not activated, then I would have to see if Renault could do it for me - they would either charge a fortune or refuse. I cant find anyone doing something similar before, is there anyway I can check before spending the £££?

Any idea how I can find out what wire the signal is actually meant to be sent down as well?

EDIT: Think I am going to tackle the EGR valve this weekend - not sure if it will have an MPG impact cleaning it up but it is worth doing anyway, as they are rarely looked at and often clogged.

Double EDIT: I found some wiring diagrams which claim to be for a Clio II - http://www.elektroda.pl/rtvforum/download.php?id=534876

Diagram 5 covers the instrument cluster, and includes some details for the 'trip computer' - labelled A1.

There are multiple wires for it - one of which is Orange (Or) and goes to the 'fuel gauge sender unit/fuel pump', there is also a line to a Pink (Sa) wire that leads to a note to 'see diagrams 10 - 13 - engine management'.

To be honest, I don't know what i'm looking at - Is there anyone here that can make more sense of it? I presume that if we identify the 'MPG wire', I can check its actually there, and perhaps even somehow check its active (voltage?) before actually spending money on a display/gauge...

Image just for those browsing who don't want to download the PDF:

[Piwoslaw]

Originally Posted by seifrob

About OBD2 readers I believe its cars ECU that determines what can OBD2 scanner read or access, as it sends data out. I have tried one OBD2 adaptor and hanfdul of different software apps with same results - my ECU reports speed, RPM, coolant temp, fuel rail pressure, turbo boost, engine load and thats all (i think - I am sitting home). there is a widget that shows all available sensors to you in Torque pro). I believe that Scangauge will report exactly the same data, as it is all my ECU sends out. But perhaps some more fortunate user will confirm this (I believe Piwoslaw has both??)

Nope, I only have the SGII (but 2 of them, so you were close!). I'm not counting the on-board computer, as it is a dirty liar and cannot be corrected, ahem, recalibrated. Mine does not report fuel pressure nor oil temp (though I doubt my Pug has a sensor for the latter?). My suspicion is that load is calculated from other parameters (RPM, intake manifold pressure, injector timing, etc.), but I cannot confirm whether it is calculated by the SGII directly, or by the ECU and then sent to SGII. The latter case would be cool if I ever make an OBDuino-based load-dependent throttle, but I'm sailing Off Topic...

[seifrob]

Originally Posted by HowGudAmI

Thanks for the replies everybody .
<snip>
I have an OBD2 plug and Torque Pro already - though the MPG figures it gives do not seem to be right - it tends to show low 60's (Imp/UK) for economy on the motorway - but I must be getting more than that based on my actual tank averages. However, just using the adjustment won't work because it seems to be accurate to what I would expect in town driving situations.
<snip>

just crossed my mind:

How about make two (or three...) vehicle profiles - one for city driving, the other for highway. I know it is not elegant solution, but this way you can calibrate your mileage separatly and not loosing precision in start-stop city driving, which seems to be close enough.

[HowGudAmI]

Originally Posted by seifrob

just crossed my mind:

How about make two (or three...) vehicle profiles - one for city driving, the other for highway. I know it is not elegant solution, but this way you can calibrate your mileage separatly and not loosing precision in start-stop city driving, which seems to be close enough.

It is certainly a possibility.

Just as an update, not any real progress since my last post - though I am due to get another fill up in the next few days - I will be sure to post when I do. I still need to clean the EGR valve and think I might end up fitting a small front air dam too.

I swapped out the OEM radio today for a Pioneer DEH-X8700DAB... not really on topic 'eco' wise but having access to digital radio, and bluetooth audio should make me more content behind the wheel (and therefore happier at a slower cruising pace)... so you never know!

One thing that I guess could be on topic, is the internal mounted DAB antenna I got - no aerodynamic burden (though the OEM FM antenna is still in place) - though it will be interesting to see how well it performs as it was only £10 and online reviews say that more traditional roof mounted styles give much stronger signal.

reception seemed fine on the driveway, time will tell on the move.