My Death Trap

[roflwaffle]

Originally Posted by Thymeclock

You refuse to compare conventional gasoline powered cars of previous years to other conventional cars made today because you might have to face the facts.

Define conventional gasoline powered car.

[Frank Lee]

^I'll take that one: that would be non-hybrid. But you knew that already.

I feel, based on my known observed performance and published specs, that the level of safety my older cars provide as far as maneuverability, braking, crush resistance, active and passive restraints, and etc. is well above a standard or threshold that allows me to function within the U.S. traffic mix and operate within the statistical odds laid out previously. As long as I'm not engaged in something/operating something that is so deleterious that it pushes me into a whole different statistical realm of odds for a significant incident/accident/fatality, I think more and more features and especially more and more mandates are MOOT and as such are not desired by me and I especially don't want to pay for them, either to acquire, maintain, have them add complication to my life, or have them detract from other performance parameters I value more.

My apologies for not thinking to put that in my first post.

[SentraSE-R]

Written like a lawyer, ROFL! Yes, you definitely needed to include that statement. Your decision is fine for you, but by originally espousing it as a desirable choice for others, you encouraged both air pollution and a greater risk of death and serious injury, plus an unjustified jab at the laws that protect you, cigarette smokers, helmetless motorcycle riders, and others who share your rationalization ability.

Originally Posted by SentraSE-R

Thirteen thousand (~28%) fewer deaths/year in the past 23 years, despite a 62 million (~25%) population increase shoots your theory completely out of the water. Unless you think people have improved their driving skills 50% in 23 years, you're going to have to accept that today's cars are a lot safer than you give them credit for being. Those 20 year old dinosaurs would also be gross polluters (think NOx emissions from a 1987 lean burn engine) under today's emissions standards.

[Frank Lee]

I think if that level of safety is good enough for me it should be good enough for everybody, but if someone wants more safety equipment I don't know why it couldn't be an optional extra, as it was on Tempos when airbags were first offered.

And, I'm not talking about pollution but if I was I'd say lighter vehicles = downsized engines = less pollution. Yes I think better engine mgmt systems are a good thing... to a point. There is a point at which further pollution reductions are subject to the same scrutiny.

[roflwaffle]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

^I'll take that one: that would be non-hybrid. But you knew that already.

I did? Really? Why non-hybrid specifically? At one point non-carb'ed, or non-automatic, or a whole slew of other things weren't conventional, but they are now to some extent, and the things that were conventional aren't any more. I don't see how having an electric motor and larger battery excludes something from comparison unless you're also gonna break other stuff up too like carb'ed versus FI, automatic versus manual, DI versus MPFI, tall gearing versus short gearing, and so on.

[Frank Lee]

Because of the battery weight and the differences in operating systems and that the highway cruiser/non city driver doesn't get much benefit from hybrid drive especially when cost is factored in. To that sort of motorist (like me, and a frozen tundra flatlander to boot) hybrid is in a different category.

[Frank Lee]

So I got an inkling for how lethal motorcycles were vs cages for my helmet thread.

Bikes about 10x more.

Odd- motorcycles are federal and state certified to be completely road legal, and yet they have 10x the propensity to kill the driver. My old cars aren't 10x worse than new ones; not by a loooong shot, yet they are "bad". As a biker, should I feel .10 as nervous/vigilant/careful/proficient when I jump in my cage? But most importantly, why would a "safety agency" give the green light to a legal street vehicle class that is 10x more lethal than another street legal class, but insist that the 10x SAFER class be saddled with ever more mandated safety equipment while the far more dangerous class is mandated with... nothing. What up wid dat?

[Thymeclock]

Originally Posted by SentraSE-R

I'm not used to holding discussions about fuel economy with dictators who make arbitrary rules eliminating the most fuel efficient cars available for sale.

So now that you have called me a "dictator" and characterized me as wanting to "make arbitrary rules eliminating the most fuel efficient cars available for sale" (which I obviously never advocated) do you feel better now?

You need to learn that name-calling and misrepresenting those who do not agree with you is not a substitute for civil discussion.

[ShadeTreeMech]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

So I got an inkling for how lethal motorcycles were vs cages for my helmet thread.

Bikes about 10x more.

I wonder what the comparison would be if people often rode motorcycles for as many miles as cars are driven. Wasn't the average miles per year quoted to be 4000 miles or so? But the average for a car is 3x that amount, and its common for people to go much further than that and not be a long distance commuter.

I also wonder what the stats would be if the over 1000 cc bikes that are so popular weren't available. Modern bike seem to me to have too much power for the weight and too many inexperienced riders who have been pampered by the cocoon of cars for so long.

[Frank Lee]

There is a wide variation in the motorcycle stats between the various categories of bikes i.e. cruiser, tourer, sportbike, etc.. There's also a wide variation in the type of rider between the categories i.e. sportbikes = mostly youngsters, etc.

There is also wide variation due to geography- up north = short riding season and elsewhere can = year round biking.

I used 4000 miles/year for bikes and 14,000 miles/year for cages.