My Death Trap

[roflwaffle]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

Because of the battery weight and the differences in operating systems and that the highway cruiser/non city driver doesn't get much benefit from hybrid drive especially when cost is factored in. To that sort of motorist (like me, and a frozen tundra flatlander to boot) hybrid is in a different category.

In that context you'll just exclude any vehicle that gets under X highway mpg and that's not exactly a rigorous criteria. Even then the vehicle w/ the best highway mileage in the states is still a hybrid. Someone may not consider it cost effective to drop ~$6k-$8k on one if they don't drive enough to warrant it, but then again someone may not even need a car if they don't drive enough, but that doesn't mean they can reasonably go and make statements like this...

Originally Posted by Thymeclock

BTW, in the grand scheme of things when comparing vehicles similar in nature, factors like rolling resistance and drag area are nowhere near as influential as gross vehicle weight.

Or reasonably exclude a vehicle in a broad comparison because of personal finances.

[Frank Lee]

The reason hybrids still manage to get better hwy fe is because of the downsized engines which are better matched for that load, and they have the electric to augment acceleration. Non-hybrids tend to be "overpowered" at hwy load so that they can have the desired acceleration performance. Vehicles that place less priority on accel performance i.e. Metros are pretty much the equal of hybrids on the hwy.

Were vehicles allowed to be lighter they could achieve hybrid fe w/o the cost, weight, and complexity.

[roflwaffle]

On the highway, a non-hybrid with whatever specs (CdA, W, Crr) would do just as well as a hybrid with the same specs given the same gearing. No weight loss is needed. In the city, the weight loss would have to be extreme to even get close *given the average driver. The XFI at ~1600+lbs pulled ~59mpg on the FTP-7* while a new Prius at ~2900lbs pulls ~72mpg. In order to get the XFI to 72mpg given a conventional gasoline engine it would have to approach the weight of a large motorcycle.

*Obviously someone can do better by driving efficiently (P&G and whatnot) , but since we're looking at the EPA tests we need to use the same driving style.

[Frank Lee]

You're right. I'll put 800 lbs of *** in the trunk and get better fe. Better yet, throw a couple hundred lbs extra on your bicycle and tell us if you have gained efficiency. Hey, it's a vehicle, so let's include it.

[roflwaffle]

I doubt an OEM would need extra 400lbs for a typical hybrid sedan compared to a similar non-hybrid version, and that's assuming they don't downsize the engine significantly. If they do then someone is probably looking at maybe an extra ~100-200lbs give or take. A prius weighs a whopping ~150lbs more than a Corolla, and it's larger too.

[Frank Lee]

I don't think we can dispute that reductions in vehicle weight are conducive to better fe, and other things too. Anyway, I don't feel like disputing it. Super High Mileage cars aren't heavy for a reason.

[SentraSE-R]

I commuted to work for 20 years on motorcycles, racking up over 100,000 miles on them. IIRC, motorcycle fatalities/100,000 miles are about 4X the car rate. The tempering factor is the rider's experience. 75% of motorcycle fatalities occur to riders in their first year of ownership of their bikes. That translated to me that once I got street smart, my chance of dying was the same as a cager's. Of course, I also rationalized that since there were zero motorcycle fatalities in my snow state in the wintertime, I was statistically immune from becoming a fatality then.

[autoteach]

ok, was gone on a little trip. Thought I might help as there is some desired vehicles, non hybrid, that have improved over past versions or other vehicles. some of these might even be heavier but maintain the fe. is this what we want, define "we"

2011 ford mustang v6 versus all previous versions less than 310hp
2011 ford taurus versus previous 2000-2010
2011 cruze vs cobalt vs cavelier

Ok, just thought I would through some vehicles out there that are not hybrids so the actual discussion can start.

[roflwaffle]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

I don't think we can dispute that reductions in vehicle weight are conducive to better fe, and other things too. Anyway, I don't feel like disputing it. Super High Mileage cars aren't heavy for a reason.

We can reasonably say that all things being equal, less weight is better, but in terms of auto design we usually aren't looking at an all things being equal situation. Look at basjoos. He might have added an extra ~100lbs of stuff to make his civic an aerocivic, but it was certainly worthwhile, probably in the city too although the effects aren't as drastic as on the highway.

[Frank Lee]

If he took weight off, would it help or hurt?