My scooter battery keeps cooking!

[spazfishy]

Originally Posted by Old Tele man

OVER charging the battery...either by (a) too much voltage, (b) too much current, or (c) charging too LONG. All of which are controlled by the battery charger used.

What KIND of charger are you using? There *IS* a difference.

• A "CHARGER" is designed to quickly "re-fill" a depleted battery by applying a voltage somewhat HIGHER than the battery's intrinsic voltage (ie: 14VDC into a 12.6V battery); it should NOT be left connected for long periods of time. Once the proper battery electrolyte acid-ratio has been achieved (indicating FULL charge) the charger should be immediately disconnected. Pumping 14V into an already fully-charged 12.6V battery will over HEAT the electrolyte causing the it to "boil" and evaporate away as you describe.

• A "FLOAT" or "TRICKLE" charger is designed to slowly (trickle)& periodically (burp) "top-off" an already "full" battery during extended periods of non-use; it CAN be left connected for long periods of time.

Hmm, well I do not recall the brand names but I to figured this might be the problem at one point, I no longer do. I have used two trickle chargers now and larger battery charger set on trickle settings. I do not keep the charger connected past the red light going to green indicating a full charge. Problem with this is that the last battery purchased was factory activated with no initial charge needed. It was also sealed and leak proof. This battery was only used to test the machine to try and figure out why my batteries keep on dying. The plan was to unhook a bunch of items and check the battery daily with a vom to see if it still reads above 12 volts. I checked it daily then weekly slowly hooking things back up to it. Well the battery never dropped below 12v. Months later I tried starting the machine and although all the lights turned on the battery could not turn it over. It was reading 12.1 volts so this was the first time I hooked it up to a charger. I trickle charged it slowly up to 12.7 and again tried to start it. Same thing, lights came on but not enough to start the engine. I then tried the battery in another scooter and same thing no juice. So yeah, I have not opened it but although the battery does now read 12.7v it no longer works. I am assuming it is also drained of acid now. Now I did test it a few times so at one point it did work. Basically it sat in my garage only used a few times to test the machine, I did not even ride it. Now, its completely dead just like the 2 other batteries before it. I do not know what to test next. If it helps the scooter is efi and water cooled. Thanks.

[gil]

Any corrosion on the battery terminals? Corrosion would limit the amount of current reaching the starter.


Gil

[Hersbird]

I have seen batteries show good voltage but they didn't have the cranking power to start a motor. You shouldn't let a battery completely drain. And you shouldn't constantly charge it either. Those good battery tenders Old Mechanic mentioned do a good job but otherwise you should disconnect the battery if you are going to leave it for months especially if you have some current draw somewhere. I bet its a combination of overcharging while running or on a charger and sitting a long time with a draw.

[spazfishy]

Originally Posted by Hersbird

I have seen batteries show good voltage but they didn't have the cranking power to start a motor. You shouldn't let a battery completely drain. And you shouldn't constantly charge it either. Those good battery tenders Old Mechanic mentioned do a good job but otherwise you should disconnect the battery if you are going to leave it for months especially if you have some current draw somewhere. I bet its a combination of overcharging while running or on a charger and sitting a long time with a draw.

Yea, I certainly don't want a battery to completely drain and trying to figure out why it is doing so. I will certainly be disconnecting the battery now after every use/test until I figure out what is causing the drain. I have used battery tenders on battery 1 and 2. At one point I thought the tenders/chargers were at fault but the last battery never touched a charger and I was hoping I could find the cause of the drain with drops in voltage but unfortunately there were no drops in voltage so I kinda thought maybe my problem was over. But then I tried to start the scoot only to find out this battery is shot too. Now, to find that drain. Hmm.. How do we do that? Tomorrow I hope to get my new battery from Amazon and I will post volts at idle and with rpms. However, I think drain is happening when not running as my last battery ran no longer that 10 minutes and it eventually died as well. I will also perhaps try to replace the regulator as I have no idea where else to start, besides some tips here which I will reread and attempt to test any of the replies that have suggestions.

Here is a question. Lets say at one point in time I had a tender or charger connected to the battery while connected to the bike and maybe it was more charge than trickle or maybe the leads were incorrect. Could this possibly break anything on the bike causing it to fry every battery connected moving forward? If so which piece would it damage and maybe I should replace?

Thanks guys

[3dplane]

Originally Posted by spazfishy

Now, to find that drain. Hmm.. How do we do that?

First you need a GOOD meter. I'm sure there are some inexpensive decent ones out there but I personally only trust my fluke meter when it comes to serious diagnosis and I need to see down to an accurate reading of only a few milliamps.

Then you need a good battery because a drain is obviously not going to show up with a dead battery.

Then you need to know how to hook up a meter for parasitic drain test.

The meter will be on the DC Amp (or DC milli Amps) setting with the leads inserted in the appropriate holes on the meter.

The other end of the leads go INLINE with the battery cables.

Meaning the battery will be connected to the scooter as normal then you disconnect ONE of the battery cables from the battery and one of the meter leads will be connected to the battery post and the other lead to the disconnected battery cable!

Ensure that everything is turned off on the scooter,take the key out.

Before you make the final connection of the second lead to the battery cable please do this: Touch and hold the battery cable to the battery post like you are reconnecting the battery to the scooter-
While touching the cable to the batt.post,connect the meter lead to the battery cable and now remove the batt.cable away from the batt.post!

This may save the fuse in the meter from the initial surge of amps upon connection that may occur if there are any modules or capacitors on the scooter that could cause a rush of Amps through the meter!

So now you have the meter hooked up inline with the circuit and you can read milliamps of drain if there is any.

How many milliamps are acceptable drain on a scooter? Beats me but if I had to guess based on the size of the battery than I would say no more than maby 2-3 milliamps. ( on a car with a 55-60 A/h battery max 25-35 mA drain is acceptable but tipically on a good car you will see 7-13 mA drain depending on how many modules and memory demanding crap it is equipped with like onstar,remote keyless entry etc.)

When you estabilished that it has an excessive drain lets say 1200 mA (1.2 Amps) then you start pulling fuses one by one or disconnecting components to narrow down the circuit with the drain on it.

This requires some mechanic with experience doing this so get help if you need to!

Don't fry the meter by accidentally turning on a load that exceeds the meter's capacity (or it's fuse's rating)

Oh and a battery voltage reading will only show you state of charge of the battery and has nothing to do with wether the battery is any good or not!

(you could put ten tiny watch batteries in series and you will read 15 volts but will it crank a starter motor? Heck no!)

You need to load the battery to see if it can hold decent voltage during a nice load like say all the lights turned on or cranking the scooter.

For example you could set up the meter to read voltage (don't leave the leads in the AMPs hole in the meter),hook it up to the battery to read voltage ,then attempt to crank the scooter while reading voltage.
If the volts drop to near zero then you got a bad battery,if the voltage does not change then you got a starting circuit problem. Just some examples.

[spazfishy]

Originally Posted by 3dplane

First you need a GOOD meter. I'm sure there are some inexpensive decent ones out there but I personally only trust my fluke meter when it comes to serious diagnosis and I need to see down to an accurate reading of only a few milliamps.

Then you need a good battery because a drain is obviously not going to show up with a dead battery.

Then you need to know how to hook up a meter for parasitic drain test.

The meter will be on the DC Amp (or DC milli Amps) setting with the leads inserted in the appropriate holes on the meter.

The other end of the leads go INLINE with the battery cables.

Meaning the battery will be connected to the scooter as normal then you disconnect ONE of the battery cables from the battery and one of the meter leads will be connected to the battery post and the other lead to the disconnected battery cable!

Ensure that everything is turned off on the scooter,take the key out.

Before you make the final connection of the second lead to the battery cable please do this: Touch and hold the battery cable to the battery post like you are reconnecting the battery to the scooter-
While touching the cable to the batt.post,connect the meter lead to the battery cable and now remove the batt.cable away from the batt.post!

This may save the fuse in the meter from the initial surge of amps upon connection that may occur if there are any modules or capacitors on the scooter that could cause a rush of Amps through the meter!

So now you have the meter hooked up inline with the circuit and you can read milliamps of drain if there is any.

How many milliamps are acceptable drain on a scooter? Beats me but if I had to guess based on the size of the battery than I would say no more than maby 2-3 milliamps. ( on a car with a 55-60 A/h battery max 25-35 mA drain is acceptable but tipically on a good car you will see 7-13 mA drain depending on how many modules and memory demanding crap it is equipped with like onstar,remote keyless entry etc.)

When you estabilished that it has an excessive drain lets say 1200 mA (1.2 Amps) then you start pulling fuses one by one or disconnecting components to narrow down the circuit with the drain on it.

This requires some mechanic with experience doing this so get help if you need to!

Don't fry the meter by accidentally turning on a load that exceeds the meter's capacity (or it's fuse's rating)

Oh and a battery voltage reading will only show you state of charge of the battery and has nothing to do with wether the battery is any good or not!

(you could put ten tiny watch batteries in series and you will read 15 volts but will it crank a starter motor? Heck no!)

You need to load the battery to see if it can hold decent voltage during a nice load like say all the lights turned on or cranking the scooter.

For example you could set up the meter to read voltage (don't leave the leads in the AMPs hole in the meter),hook it up to the battery to read voltage ,then attempt to crank the scooter while reading voltage.
If the volts drop to near zero then you got a bad battery,if the voltage does not change then you got a starting circuit problem. Just some examples.

Thanks for such detail! I will be printing this and hope to start tests soon. Maybe tonight, I did just receive a new battery. I might need to pick up a more sophisticated meter however.

Anyways, I will certainly post back any findings. Thanks a lot to you all, I know any reply takes your much valued time!

[spazfishy]

Originally Posted by 2000mc

Exactly what voltages do you find when measuring at the battery, at idle? At 2000-3000rpm?

The new battery is measured at 12.76 volts, at idle it is 13.85 volts, at rpm it is 12.76 volts.

[spazfishy]

[QUOTE=Then you need to know how to hook up a meter for parasitic drain test.
[/QUOTE]

Now I will prove exactly how inexperienced I am and hopefully you can still help me. I posted the volts for the new battery in a previous email. I am now failing at the how to hook up and read a meter for the parasitic drain test. I will insert a picture of the VOM I am using. I do know it is about the cheapest vom money can buy and if it is not going to do the job I can get my hands on a better one soon. Like, I mentioned though I am very very inexperienced with this so I am not sure which setting you are telling me to set it to. Please let me know what to set it to on my vom when you see the picture to complete your parasitic test. Next, I am confused a little about the battery hook up piece. You say to disconnect one lead from the battery, can it be positive or negative? Does this matter? Next the battery post, is this simply the cable that is still connected to the battery, is that the post? So if I am getting this part correct I would disconnect one cable from the battery, could be positive or negative. Then connect one wire from the vom to the loose cable and one wire of the vom to the connected wire. I am guessing the positive and negative on the vom do not matter at this point too. Is this correct so far? Please let me know which is the correct setting on my vom and if my logic is correct. I will then report back the milliamps of drain. Thanks again for your time. P.S. my father is pretty decent at this stuff so he can help me if it gets more complicated but I am flying solo for now. Also, if you have a computer problem I might be able to help. :P

[3dplane]

You are right I did not mention that it does not matter which post you disconnect and it does not matter what lead you put where!
All it is going to do is display the current flow as negative if it is backwards. It will be the same amount as forward.

As far as hookup,you are making a connection between your disconnected battery post and the disconnected battery cable with your meter leads.
One lead touches the 'naked' batt post,the other lead touches the disconnected battery cable.
You are inserting the meter inline essentially reconnecting the battery through the the meter!

Your meter: move the red lead over to the hole that says 10 A.
Set the dial to the 10 A setting to start with.
If the lowest reading that it can display here is 0.1 A, that would be 100 mA (milli Amps) and if that is what you read,(too much draw) then you need to switch to read down to milli amps.

I don't know your meter but it looks like you would put the red lead back to the whole where it is on your picture and change the dial to be in the milli amps range say 200m setting in the DCA section surrounded by a green line.
On my fluke it auto ranges so it can display from 1mA to 10 A without having to touch anything.

BTW it seems your scooter only charging at idle! Not good!
Is the headlight on when it is running?

[Hersbird]

Somebody added an amp meter to my bike which I love. It simply shows if the battery is charging or discharging, and how much, or simply neutral.
You have to wire all the voltage through the meter, but they are inexpensive. Dodge used to put them on all cars and trucks up to the mid 70s. They were problematic there because all the electrical load had to run up under the dash and cars started getting to many electrical gizmos for the wiring and connectors to handle. A motorcycle is no problem though.