A new Peoples' Car?

[Frank Lee]

"Maybe one day people will look at the totality of the situation and see a simple solution. That's where I am today."

That's why I advocate a reversal of the population explosion.

Can't hurt.

[Thymeclock]

Originally Posted by RobertSmalls

To be fair, some people aren't asleep at the wheel, they just have to wait for green, reach for the starter switch, then crank for a second or two and let out the clutch. Not me, though.

I can assure you that is not the case where I live.

I may be the only person in the area who sometimes shuts the engine off while waiting for long lights (that remain red for at least several minutes).

For those of you who do not live in a large city or heavily populated suburban area, there is no way I can describe the multitudes who are inattentive when the light (or in this case the green arrow) turns green: the elderly (who unfortunately are slower due to aging), those who are distracted with cell phones, texting, eating, drinking, smoking, reading, daydreaming, looking for stuff under their car seats, arguing with their companions, putting on makeup (usually women), picking their noses (usually men), those who want to attempt a U-turn or decide they no longer want to turn left from the from the left turn lane (even though it is illegal,) etc.. And here's my personal favorite: those meek drivers who still do not realize that a green arrow means that they, and only they now have complete and total right of way, without requiring any further contemplation, uncertainty or necessity of extended visual double-checking for any other moving traffic.

Even if the light is operated by a sensor, it only stays green briefly. All it takes is one inattentive dolt to wait 15 or more seconds after the arrow turns green - which means that only a few cars can proceed before the green arrow turns red again (for another five minutes) often leaving dozens of cars still waiting, sometimes for several cycles of the light.

We can install the best designed roads and the most sophisticated, programmed traffic signals on earth - but without instilling driver education and common courtesy, remember this: it only takes one person to hold up any line - no matter how long the line is behind that person.

This is a problem of human psychology. There is no quick-fix technological solution for it.

[Frank Lee]

^Yup.

Almost got flattened out this afternoon at an intersection; me on bicycle, woman applying fingernail polish while "driving".

And back in the Midwest it's been legal to make right turns at red lights unless specifically prohibited for, oh, the last 100 years, and yet I'm always behind someone that sits there at red lights waiting, like me, to make a right turn, but they wait for the green even though there's no cross traffic.

[aerohead]

Originally Posted by artificer

And thats where it breaks down. When I drive to and from work it is the rush hour. Stop and go traffic, especially now with road construction. If I happen to have to drive the same route during the middle of the day or at night, the lights are timed. I almost never see it on my commute, however. So how do you solve the problems? More roads? cloverleaf in the city? Make everyone start/end work at different times? What makes the most sense is a car with regenerative braking that doesn't cost a fortune.

Michael

Michael,everyone would need to come on board.
Traffic engineers must face budget constraints,lack of public compliance with posted traffic aids,lack of police enforcement,lack of court support,elected officials motivated by political agendas whom presume to know things beyond their grasp,policy-making bodies,business groups,city officials,community leaders,media,all of whom may not respect solutions on technical merits alone.
Decreased travel time,reduction in traffic fatalities and injuries,increased economic benefits to taxpayers,reductions in operating costs can mean virtually nothing to government officials.
Public knowledge and understanding of the actual issues may remain the ultimate bottleneck.
Perhaps motorists have no expectations about actually traveling anywhere.

[aerohead]

Originally Posted by ShadeTreeMech

Why don't people put solar panels on the roofs of their cars to capture free elcetric? That would seem to be a great thing in an electric or hybrid car, yet no one hardly does it. The only thing i can think of is the low amount of power available from solar panels.

Making a car able to survive a crash can be a bit of a catch 22. If the car is lighter, it can move with the crash or bounce out of the way instead of crushing itself, as a heavier car has to do. So it is a bit of a dilemma until carbon fiber gets cheaper.

As far as that goes, what's so wrong with using ABS for body panels? Saturn did it and the cars looked great; the panels apparently were easy to replace. GM used plastic a bit for body panels on their vans for a slight weight savings. But why did people stop using it and go for steel?

Porsche Engineering rejected the space frame in the mid-1990s citing, that after evaluation , lower upper body strength,especially along the roof rail would not handle the crash energy of a Body-In -White hybrid steel unibody developed to the UltraLight steel auto body ( ULSAB ) specifications.
I believe GM used sheet molding compound SMC for Saturn cars body panels along with Reaction Injection Molding (RIM) for the fascias.
Safety may have pushed GM away from plastics,as crash energy absorption during destructive deformation of the steel unibody probably has the edge.
It has been claimed that carbon fiber will never go down in price.
Carbon fiber ( polyacrylonitrile ) is made from pitch or Orlon heated in a vacuum until oxidized.It's all hydrocarbon.

[aerohead]

Originally Posted by Bicycle Bob

Light timing with more than a few intersections, cross streets, two-way streets and other variables becomes an exercise in compromise, not perfection. However, it would not be hard to add a string of LEDs beside the road to show the correct pace to make the next light, or encourage gentle stops.

I hope I live to see this technology.With electronic ranging,a system could prompt motorists approaching the intersection at a velocity which would allow the light to change green as they approached.Good one!

[aerohead]

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic

Aerohead:

I agree 100% with your criticism of road design.

I just believe that you can also eliminate the effects of bad road design, by incorporating high efficiency, simple, lightweight, virtually unlimited life expectancy, power train components to vehicles without extensive redesign.

In doing so you would make them less expensive, more reliable, and a lot more efficient.

Consider the most accomplished hypermiler on the planet. Their actions follow a totally predictable, and understandable pattern. The results are very predictable and repeatable.

Incorporate those techniques into the design of the vehicle itself, and you will have the "peoples car" of this century, instead of a tribute to the poor designs of the last century.

regards
Mech

Mech,looked at your two posts.Thanks.
The thread is just a thought experiment to explore technical abstractions.
The hybrids are an attempt to compensate for the inefficiencies of the infrastructure.And I applaud them.We need the 'bridge.'
This morning I went with a friend to by a Prius.And while I was at the dealer,I laid on their nice marble floors staring up at the under belly of both the Toyota and Honda hybrids.
The Koenigsegg got my attention because of its windshield and roofline and because of all the single commuters driving to Dallas and back each day who wouldn't ride a motorcycle,won't buy an 'economy' car,etc.,but would drive a 'race' car,or something with the appearance of a race car.
With a tapering body,side collision protection could be maintained.Aero would be a quantum leap.Made of steel,they could be stamped out by the hundreds of thousands.Sold as 'strippers' with accessory options,they could be sold as cheap as any entry level Kia,Hyundai,etc..
My morning convinced me that the hybrid powertrain requires no more under hood space than conventional IC.
Hybrid drive could be an option or just put it in all the cars and let economies of scale take care of the cost?
I would still pursue infrastructure improvements.The money is there.It just goes up in invisible smoke each year.

[aerohead]

Originally Posted by Thymeclock

I can assure you that is not the case where I live.

I may be the only person in the area who sometimes shuts the engine off while waiting for long lights (that remain red for at least several minutes).

For those of you who do not live in a large city or heavily populated suburban area, there is no way I can describe the multitudes who are inattentive when the light (or in this case the green arrow) turns green: the elderly (who unfortunately are slower due to aging), those who are distracted with cell phones, texting, eating, drinking, smoking, reading, daydreaming, looking for stuff under their car seats, arguing with their companions, putting on makeup (usually women), picking their noses (usually men), those who want to attempt a U-turn or decide they no longer want to turn left from the from the left turn lane (even though it is illegal,) etc.. And here's my personal favorite: those meek drivers who still do not realize that a green arrow means that they, and only they now have complete and total right of way, without requiring any further contemplation, uncertainty or necessity of extended visual double-checking for any other moving traffic.

Even if the light is operated by a sensor, it only stays green briefly. All it takes is one inattentive dolt to wait 15 or more seconds after the arrow turns green - which means that only a few cars can proceed before the green arrow turns red again (for another five minutes) often leaving dozens of cars still waiting, sometimes for several cycles of the light.

We can install the best designed roads and the most sophisticated, programmed traffic signals on earth - but without instilling driver education and common courtesy, remember this: it only takes one person to hold up any line - no matter how long the line is behind that person.

This is a problem of human psychology. There is no quick-fix technological solution for it.

Education is on the list.I guess we'll have to do that one in the lounge.
P.S. did you ever consider doing stand-up comedy.With George Carlin gone now there's a void out there.

[ShadeTreeMech]

Mech posed an interesting question regarding heavy car vs light car in hilly terrain, with the assumption that a heavier car has a higher kinetic energy going down a hill to recharge batteries, but then it would burn more going up hills.

Since I drive in hilly country nearly all the time, I have to say I would prefer a lighter car on any accounts, mainly because hills inevitably involve going around corners. Drving something heavy would certainly cause you to slow down more than a lighter nimbler car which you could drive around most corners at speed.

One big factor in car design that I see causes conflict is whether to have several vehicles for several tasks, or fewer cars that can fulfill all tasks. Minivans are rather large, however they fulfill nearly all tasks Joe Average would need from a car. But what about when he is just commuting to work? Well, a motorcycle has highest chance of making great economy, short of having an EV metro you conned Ben to make for you.

I currently have a minivan and a mid sized sedan, but there is a Geo Metro 4 door I've been drooling over lately for economy. I also have a derelict Explorer I need to get going for the rough stuff. If I were to buy the Metro (or similar car) and get the Explorer running, then buy a trailer for the Explorer to tow when needed, I'd have all my vehicle needs fulfilled. But that's a total of 4 cars for a 2 driver household!

How hard would it be to make a vehicle that can come with removeable passenger/freight modules to lengthen or shorten the vehicle as needed?

[cfg83]

aerohead -

Originally Posted by aerohead

Porsche Engineering rejected the space frame in the mid-1990s citing, that after evaluation , lower upper body strength,especially along the roof rail would not handle the crash energy of a Body-In -White hybrid steel unibody developed to the UltraLight steel auto body ( ULSAB ) specifications.
I believe GM used sheet molding compound SMC for Saturn cars body panels along with Reaction Injection Molding (RIM) for the fascias.
Safety may have pushed GM away from plastics,as crash energy absorption during destructive deformation of the steel unibody probably has the edge.
It has been claimed that carbon fiber will never go down in price.
Carbon fiber ( polyacrylonitrile ) is made from pitch or Orlon heated in a vacuum until oxidized.It's all hydrocarbon.

Found this by accident today :

GM unveils Saturn: skin is half thermoplastic. | Automotive > Automotive Overview from AllBusiness.com

All vertical body panels and bumper fascia on the Saturn models are injection molded thermoplastics. The panels are bolted to the steel space-frame understructure, complementing the steel horizontal body panels, and making Saturn the first true high-volume vehicle platform making extensive use of TP body panels.

While there will be three different Saturn models introduced this year (a two-door sports coupe and the SL1 and SL2 four-door sedans), manufacturing engineers indicate that the facility has capability for producing two additional body styles in coming years.

Materials used for the major body panels include Noryl GTX 910 PPO/nylon alloy form GE Plastic for fenders and quarter panels; Pulse B250 PC/ABS from Dow Chemical for door panels, rocker panels and lower deck-lid panels; HiFax ETA-3095 TPO from Himont Inc. for upper and lower front bumper fascia; and an unnamed proprietary HiFax TPO grade for rear bumper fascia. On the two-door sports coupe and SL2 four-door model, the doors are split into interlocking upper and lower panels, providing two-tone paint flexibility for variations in body styling.
...
DIMENSIONAL ACCURACY VITAL

In previous thermoplastic body-panel applications, dimensional stability was a key concern, and often a crucial stumbling block (see PT, Sept. '89, p. 84). Saturn engineers say they anticipated some problems with maintaining dimensional stability of thermoplastic panels and therefore designed wider margins between each panel. While these fit margins are slightly wider than on most compact cars, the engineers say it was "a worthwhile tradeoff," given the advantages derived from the polymer panels.

CarloSW2