New Vetter Challenge

[euromodder]

But aerodynamically, they're using almost the same solution - though the Busa could be a bit more streamlined

[dcb]

That is what I am trying to say, in response to:

Originally Posted by jkv357

True, but as far as conventional high performance motorcycles go, it's <the busa>the best overall shape available. It's the base for most Land Speed Racing efforts because of it's superior aerodynamics.

A modified design just went 311 MPH.

The thing that went 311mph bears no resemblance to a stock busa in shape or in power output.

The other point is that 311mph is a function of aerodynamic drag and power, and not fuel efficiency, though minimal drag certainly helps there, we cannot draw any conclusions from the 311mph figure, it is meaningless in an economy discussion.

[jkv357]

Originally Posted by dcb

That is what I am trying to say, in response to:


The thing that went 311mph bears no resemblance to a stock busa in shape or in power output.

The other point is that 311mph is a function of aerodynamic drag and power, and not fuel efficiency, though minimal drag certainly helps there, we cannot draw any conclusions from the 311mph figure, it is meaningless in an economy discussion.

OK, it is modified quite a bit from the stock Busa shape, but my original point was that the stock Busa shape is as aero as you can get in a production high performance motorcycle - even though it's not particularly aero.

Streamlining, for economy or top speed, is meaningful in this discussion IMO.

Even though it required massive HP to go 311 MPH, aerodynamics and drag reduction are still major factors - just like they are when striving for maximum economy.

The 311 MPH Busa's overall shape and aero improvements could still be beneficial to someone with a 250cc engine striving for 100 (200?) MPG, so it's worth discussing.


Jay

[jkv357]

Originally Posted by dcb

(SNIP) 470mpg on real roads with a 185cc bike is seriously impressive, on an economy forum anyway (and that was 26 years ago!! )
1985 Matsu talks

I'd like to see more info on this, but I've not been able to find much.

The local library has Craig Vetter's "How They Got 470 MPG" video ($25 on his site), but unfortunately it's a recording of Vetter speaking to a group at a convention. No specifics about getting 470 MPG, just his thoughts on why we need vehicles with better fuel economy.

Vetter page (link above) is the only real info I've seen about it.


Jay

[dcb]

Originally Posted by jkv357

Streamlining, for economy or top speed, is meaningful in this discussion IMO.

Breaking speed records with high power engines is a red herring, having enough power to keep up and stay up with traffic is really the only power requirement.

Guess I will have to do your homework for you

Schultz Engineering - Electric Motorcycle Aerodynamics
"The ZX-12R has a frontal area of 6.09 ft2 (0.566 m2), physically larger than the Hayabusa, which is 6.01 ft2 (0.558 m2 ). ...
coefficient of drag, which is 0.603 for the 12R and 0.561 for the Hayabusa...
It's worth remembering, however, that neither of these CD figures indicate a particularly impressive degree of streamlining...
Such is the nature of streetbikes, where performance derives mostly from extreme power-to-weight ratios..."

You are not going to win a vetter competition with a 0.561 CD, though a really small person on a really small bike might.

[redyaris]

In fact the BMW K 1 achieved a Cd of 0.48 according to Aerodynamics of Road Vehicles by Hucho, page 515 of the 4th edition, So the Hyabusa is not "...very aerodynamic..." even by the low standards of production motorcycles. There are pictures on this web site of the BMW K 1. Look in the Aerodynamics section, motorcycle aero mods.

[low&slow]

I just got Craig's email with the official results of the 7/22 2011 Mid-Ohio Vetter Challenge and they are :

#1 Max Perethian on his NX250 consumed $2.47... ($.0237 per mile) 152.88 mpg

#2 Fred Hayes HDT Diesel consumed $2.68 in bio Diesel... ($.0257 per mile)
143.53 mpg

#3 Jack McCornack Diesel car consumed $3.14 Diesel... ($.0301 per mile) 127.38
mpg

#4 Dale on Hayes HDT Diesel #2 consumed $3.23 in bio Diesel... ($.031 per mile)
119.22 mpg

#5 Alan Smith, 250 Ninja consumed $3.27 in pump gas... ($.0314 per mile) 115.9
mpg

#6 Craig Vetter, Honda 250 scooter $3.57 in pump gas...($.0343 per mile) 109.57
mpg

#7 Ted Visscher F650 GS consumed $5.30 in pump gas... ($.0509 per mile) 73.64
mpg

#8 Tim Yow KLR 650 consumed $5.62 in pump gas... ($.0539 per mile) 69.57 mpg

#9 Charly Perethian Honda CB400T twin consumed $8.59 in pump gas... ($.0824 per
mile) 45.47 mpg

The Electric Challenge:

I never expected the electric bikes to complete the complete ride. All three
electric bikes entered stopped and turned around at the first break, 38 miles
into the ride where they recharged at an RV park. As far as I know, they all
returned on their own power.

Pretty awesome ! Congratulations to Craig and all the Vetter Challenge competitors , they all did outstanding efforts.

all the best L&S

[jkv357]

I wonder if this is the winning NX250 -



You'd think it would have a fairing though, pretty sure he's the founder of Rifle and Parabellum Fairings.

It's credited as Charly Perethian, and was located on Vetter's site here -

2011-Craig Vetter Challengers

I haven't seen any info from the latest Vetter Challenge, other than what low & slow posted above (thanks l&s).

If anyone has seen more info, please post it.

Thanks.


Jay

[dcb]

Yah, no pics, and I don't think Charlie and Max are the same person.

I'm reasonably sure the 250 class did not go from 135 to 153 mpg by getting rid of aerodynamics

"Craig Vetter started his famous motorcycle high mileage contests which Charly saw as a great aerodynamic research project, getting 135 mpg (2nd place) in 1981, on his XL250."
BMW Motorcycle Windshields, Fairings

[Frank Lee]

They must not have had the fierce Cali x-winds as everyone did better than in the past... DETAILS, I WANT DETAILS!!!

Route: speeds? rates of acceleration? stops? grades? winds? Length was 104.22-104.32 miles (someone put on .10 mile more?) Fuel costs: gas 3.63/g; bio-diesel 3.69/g; diesel 3.82/g? What did the electricity cost for the EVs? Why didn't they try to go farther?