Newer car? Thinking about doing what I said I wasn't going to do

[endurance]

Ok, so the plan has been to wait and see what comes out in the next couple years and mile out the Acura RSX-S (currently 130k), then buy a new/newer higher MPG car. It's EPA highway rated at 24 combined, 28 highway and I'm currently milking about 36mpg out of it. Trade in value is about $4800. Private party bluebook is $6500 and there's a shortage of them in the Denver market to compare to (most are dealers asking $7500-8500).

I've been looking at the 40+ mpg cars and found several 2003 Honda Civic Hybrids out there for $6600-7000 with 90-120k miles on them. They're EPA rated at 41 combined, 45 highway.

Based on 2008 EPA numbers at 22k miles a year:

@$3/gallon gas I'd save $857/year
@$4/gallon gas I'd save $1142/year

Given that all used cars are a crap shoot even if you do a Carfax report (you never know about oil changes unless they produce receipts, etc), the math looks pretty good. What are your thoughts? Is the Civic Hybrid a solid vehicle? Anything to look for? I've heard they're underpowered, but I can live with that (I've owned a CRX-HF before). I'm just looking at the cost for the next 4-5 years. Even if gas stays fixed, it seems like a better option than riding this thing out for two more years in the hopes something better will come along that I'll be willing to finance. With this deal, I'd be, at worst, within a couple grand of break even and at best, actually have no net cost.

[SentraSE-R]

A battery pack failure is the big IF in the equation, and Honda hybrids have more than their share of failures in that arena. I'd keep the RSX if I were you.

[endurance]

Good to know. Consumer reports speaks well of them, but doesn't separate their data for the hybrid so things like that don't show up.

Well, I'm also looking older Prii and keeping my eye out for other sub-$7k options.

I also calculated based on my current mpg and applied that same ratio over EPA highway and the pay back is definitely slower because I'm already using so few gallons per year.

Just keeping my options open.

[Frank Lee]

Go drive one, that'll tell you much about if it's worth considering it or not.

[RobertSmalls]

In the case of most Honda hybrids, the battery will need service within the car's lifetime. If you go to the dealer, it's $3000. You can buy a professionally refurbished unit from a third party for ~$1000. Or you can keep its pack balanced with a $100 grid charger, potentially staving off its death for quite some time. There's also an inexpensive DIY refurb option.

I absolutely love my Insight. If you want a stick-shifted hybrid (and you do), you have three choices, and they're all Hondas.

[endurance]

Robert, I appreciate the insight into the Honda issues. Can you point me toward the charger and also any info you might have on what it might take on rebuilding/replacing the batteries on your own and on the cheap?

If I'm going to do this, I want to do it with my eyes wide open. I'm willing to tinker, but reliability is critical and I'm no super-genius mechanic. I'm going to head down and try to get in a test drive today. The one I'm looking at is a 5 speed, but they seem to be the rarer of the two breeds. That said, I figured out in Consumer Reports how to separate off the Hybrid Civics and it's clear the two big problem areas for the 2003-2005 were the transmissions and electrical system (not very specific, but I suspect that's likely the battery issue). I've read a number of on line reviews by owners and it's definitely a love/hate car. Some folks had some very bad experiences, some struggled with firmware glitches, and some are moving to another state where it's legal to marry them.

[endurance]

Well, I drove down to the Springs and took it out for a spin. The Civic Hybrid definitely makes the short list. While I'll agree with the critics that it is pretty short on horsepower, because it was a 5 speed and I was able to downshift as I saw hills or on ramps coming, I was able to safely operate in moderately heavy traffic. I took it out for about of 40 mile test drive including highway speeds up to 80mph and several moderate hills. It did fine and it was a fun car to drive from an instrumentation standpoint. I also loved the fact that the car auto-stopped and auto-started when I went in and out of neutral. That makes hypermiling easy!

I'd asked in advance if they were interested in my trade, so I even brought my title and cash with me. However, it was all talk. While they listed a very reasonable price on the windshield that I was willing to pay, they wouldn't even come close to Blue Book Wholesale and that was only after a ridiculous starting offer ($2,400 for my trade). I guess I'm going to have to sell it myself if I want a fraction of what it's worth... If I decide to sell. I'm still on the bubble, but leaning toward doing the deed right now rather than two more years of good, but not impressive mileage.

I also want to go play with a few other new cars, like the Echo, Fit, Yaris, and possibly the Prius. However, my desire for a 5-speed and the auto start feature definitely gave a distinct advantage to the Civic Hybrid. That said, if I could find a high MPG car with a little better power to weight ratio and none of the liabilities of the older Honda batteries, that could be a game changer, too.

[mcrews]

Not sure why you are even trying to use the blue book values. I have never seen them work. Also, the expectation that a dealer will buy or trade for a car w/130k is unrealistic. They get there used cars at auction. cheap. very cheap.
Your goig to have to private sell to get close. And the problem here is financing. the guy with 7k in his pocket is going to get a car selling for 10k private.

a piece of the equation to consider. Parts for the acura will be more expensive than parts for the honda.

[endurance]

Well in this case, Blue Book seems reasonable. Right now if you look for my car within a 100 mile range of my home, you'll find three, maybe four of the same year. All have over 100k miles, one at 171k. All of them are at dealers and all are asking $7,300-8,400. Blue Book Private Party is $6,500, Blue Book Wholesale is $4,800. When I'm coming with $2k cash in hand, a trade they can easily sell for $6,800 and I'm willing to take $4,800 from the dealer, that's $4k on the transaction for them.

They didn't want it and I can accept that, but I'm sure not going to settle for less than that. I can easily sell it for $6k, worst case scenario, $5500 and come out much better in the end. It'll just take the time for me to clean it up, advertise it, and get it sold. That's what I'm debating at the moment is whether I want to try to do this right now or wait a little while.

As far as Acura parts costing more, I doubt it. I haven't been to an Acura dealer since I bought it. I use my local Honda dealer; it's all the same parts with very few exceptions. Besides, what parts need replacement on a newer car anyway? The first set of new plugs wasn't scheduled until 105k miles and it doesn't have a timing belt. Unless it's in a wreck, it's a Civic from a maintenance standpoint.

[mcrews]

you don't understand how a dealer works.
1. the cars on the lot didn't cost 1/2 of the selling price. probably closer to 30-40%.
2. the 'price' is artificially high. so they can 'negociate' and to give them cushion for people w/ bad credit.
3. most used car lots are in the money business, not the car business. they are selling financing. The car is just the comodity.
in your example asking 8k. you have 2k to put down. the bank finances the 6k for 60 months. the loan payback is around 9,500.
Dealer paid 4k whloesale at auction.
gross profit is 7,500.

The New car side of a dealers lot is a breakeven deal. the money on new cars is in the service dept. where the manfacturer pays the 100-140 hourly repair rate. the used car dept is where the money is. ESPECIALLY with inhouse financing. most used car financing from a dealer is in the 9.9-15% range.