Nissan Leaf

[HiFlite]

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic

Does the source of liquid fuel affect the consumption? Of course not. Consumption is measured by volume, not source or cost.

....

Just be honest, you are willing to spend significantly more to be among the first to go fossil fuel free. That's admirable in itself, but mybe just not practical for those who have lesser means and more limited incomes.

I, for one, would not argue that a decent used car, of almost any type, is cheaper to run that most any new car. Those of lesser means and limited income have limited choices. Those of unlimited means are more likely to be concerned with the best private jet than the best car.

For those somewhere in the middle, the decision of what to drive is a balance of many factors. Few who have some choice in the matter choose to by the car that gives the absolute lowest cost per mile. Is that a stupid decision? Maybe, maybe not. My son just graduated from college and needed a car. Locally, there was a low-mile, pristine, and rust-free 1974 Plymouth Valiant available for $2700. That would have been the cheapest/mile option for him, but without any modern safety features, it could also have killed him too. A 2015 Escalade for $60k would probably be safest, but also too costly. Choice, balance.

My Volt is the my first new car since my 1984 GTI. Will it be the cheapest/mile compared to the string of $1500 used cars I've had in between? No. A $150/month saving in gasoline does not offset a $800/month payment (but it helps a little). If one defines "smart" as lowest cost per mile, the it was a stupid purchase. But very few car buyers, new or otherwise, act on a pure cost basis. Otherwise the roads would be full of no A/C Versas and the like. People insist on extra-cost options.

IMO, electric drive is the best luxury offered since the advent of air conditioning. Few get their panties in a knot if someone buys a BMW or Z28 over a Versa, but for some reason, many do when it comes to electric cars. (No, I'm not saying that you are doing that.) (Yet I've found that removing the emblems from my car and adding a Browning sticker on the back has cut back road rage from 4x4 pickup truck drivers.)

Given that electric drive is an extra-cost option, why do some buy it? Stupid or not, one will find that a good fraction of electric-car buyers choose to spend extra money to buy a car that minimizes sending money to the middle east, directly or indirectly. You'll find plenty of people in the gm-volt forum that have served themselves during wars there or, more tragically, have lost loved ones in those wars. So yes, for those, where the energy comes from does measure in "consumption" calculations.

[Hypermiler1995]

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic

When you consider a Leaf (I did) and ignore the total cost of ownership, You're only fooling yourself. Even without financing cost, taxes, insurance, and depreciation costs are staggering.

What I do is figure the total miles the car should go (300,000mi), subtract the miles on it when bought from that (-144,000=156,000), divide that by how far it will be drove in a year (156,000/15,000=10.4) that is the approx. number of years the car will last without a new engine or something like that, divide the asking price by the number of years it will last ($6700/10.4=$644yr), you may want to add the cost of a battery pack if a hybrid/EV ($8200/10.4=$788yr), there is the annual cost of the car only, that is all I count as newer cars will have higher taxes, older cars will have higher upkeep, so it evens out. (maybe?)
Now add up the cost of gas for the year, with the average est. fuel price for the life of the car (15,000mi/50mpg=300gal.*$3.50gal=$1050yr)that is the fuel cost.
Now add the two together ($788+$1050=$1838yr

[P-hack]

I get about $0.02/mile in the leaf when I hypermile. Paid cash for the 2012 (got it for $13k, liability only), and it can do 0-60 2 seconds faster than a 92 sentra. It is pretty much cake. It isn't going to pay for itself anytime soon though. I bought a new metro once for about the same, it never paid for itself either, but the leaf has other options (i.e. house rooftop solar panel) that might be fun to explore. Good chance it will be worth more than I paid if gas goes back up to $4 or more. (fyi, at $2/gallon 40mpg=$0.05/mile)

Edit, there are numerous free charging stations about too, so...

[RedDevil]

I'd like to have an EV for the sake of having less noise while driving. Adding noise level to the equasion changes the picture a lot.
I have tinnitus and a high noise level makes my ears ring harder than before, and that may last for days on end. I would even drive slow if it costs me more fuel than going fast.

I've taped my door and upper boot lid seams this weekend with 3M foam tape, hope that helps reduce both noise and fuel usage. But I'm saving for an EV

[user removed]

Good points everyone and without a single bit of rancor.

regards
mech

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic

You're electricity cost is the amount used divided into the cost. Any other method of calculation, is just incorrect.

Your description of how to calculate overall electricity cost is correct, but it does not apply to calculating the additional cost of owning an EV.

The fixed cost that everyone with existing electrical connections pays to have electricity delivered to their home is not an additional cost of owning an EV. It is an accounting error to factor fixed costs into the calculation of what the additional cost of owning an EV would be.

The only appropriate way to factor in the fixed cost of having an electrical connection in regards to purchasing an EV is if you currently have no electrical connection and would be required to add it because of the addition of the EV.

When you consider a Leaf (I did) and ignore the total cost of ownership, You're only fooling yourself. Even without financing cost, taxes, insurance, and depreciation costs are staggering.

Just be honest, you are willing to spend significantly more to be among the first to go fossil fuel free. That's admirable in itself, but mybe just not practical for those who have lesser means and more limited incomes.

Good point, and this is the main reason holding me back from purchasing a Leaf. Certainly for the very few of us willing and capable of driving a $1,000 gasser and maintaining it ourselves, the best financial decision is to drive an old beater.

Most people don't have the mechanical skill, interest, or capability (tools) to maintain their own vehicle. This drives the cost of ownership up on gassers. Most people want modern safety features such as ABS, airbags, etc, which means owning a newer vehicle. Finally, most people want the latest conveniences such as heated seats, bluetooth, and nav, so that further increases the cost of the vehicle. A comparable gasser with the safety, comfort, and features of an EV will often cost more in the long run.

For those whose main priority is to save money, an EV doesn't make any sense. For many others, it just might, especially for families with 2 or more vehicles.

My 15 year cost of ownership comparison:

2006 TSX (current vehicle)-

Depreciation = Purchase price - Sale price (estimated)
$15,500 depreciation = $17,000 purchase - $1,500 sale

Maintenance/Repairs = Yearly maint cost * Years of ownership
$2,250 Maint = $150 maint * 15 years

Insurance = Yearly premium * Years
$6,000 Insurance = $400 premium * 15 years

Taxes/Registration = Yearly cost * Years
$600 Registration = $40 * 15 years

Fuel Cost = Yearly Miles * Cost per mile * Years
$20,682 Fuel Cost = 12,000 miles * ($3.47\30.2mpg=11.5 cents per mile) * 15 years

Total 15 year cost of ownership = $45,032
$0.25 per mile

2011 Leaf-

Depreciation = Purchase price - Sale price (estimated)
$12,000 depreciation = $12,500 purchase - $500 sale

Maintenance/Repairs = Yearly maint cost * Years of ownership
$1,125 Maint = $75 maint * 15 years

Insurance = Yearly premium * Years
$6,000 Insurance = $400 premium * 15 years

Taxes/Registration = Yearly cost * Years
$600 Registration = $40 * 15 years

Electricity Cost = Yearly Miles * Cost per mile * Years
$2,895 Electricity Cost = 12,000 miles * ($0.08041 KWh\5 miles = 1.6082 cents per mile) * 15 years

Total 15 year cost of ownership = $22,620
$0.13 per mile

It's nearly twice as expensive for me to drive my TSX than to drive the Leaf for 15 years assuming gas/electricity prices hold steady, and I do all my own maintenance/repairs. For those that pay a mechanic, it will cost even more to own a TSX vs a Leaf.

[HiFlite]

Originally Posted by RedDevil

I'd like to have an EV for the sake of having less noise while driving. Adding noise level to the equation changes the picture a lot.
I have tinnitus and a high noise level makes my ears ring harder than before, and that may last for days on end. I would even drive slow if it costs me more fuel than going fast.

Indeed, I have the same problem - too many years in industrial settings and airplanes before hearing protection. May I suggest a couple of products? For panel damping, Second "Skin Damplifier" and Dynamat's "Dynaliner" for barrier foam. A couple of years ago I used Damplifier to cover the inside skin of my RX-8 which made a huge difference in noise. Last year, I did the same with my Volt, then covered that with Dynaliner, which made an even bigger difference. The only way to get rid of low frequency noise is to add lots of mass, but for the cost of 15-25 kg, the mid-range up is reduced enough that I don't even suffer too much after a long day in the RX. The Volt/Ampera (with Michelin tires) is now bank-vault quiet.

[Astro]

Working out a consumption cost can be tricky and varies depending on each persons situation.
For example i have solar panels on the roof that more than cancel all my current electricity use including supply charges etc. I don't think there will be enough excess electricity generated to fully cover the EV's electricity use but certainly some of it.
So using a kWh used divided by out of pocket cost will be very skewed.

The way i am looking it at the moment is.
I pay out of my pocket @$80 per week ($4160 per year) in fuel for my existing gas guzzler. (a V8 and heavy traffic are not an economical combination)
The EV may cost me as little as $10 per week out of pocket.

That to me is a big saving.

If i had a more efficient gas vehicle then the savings wouldn't be as much and the transition to an EV would seem more expensive.

This may be a flawed way of looking at it but it is how it feels to my wallet.

[Cobb]

All good points. I guess we just need to agree on a starting point so everyone is on the level.

On another forum some people give me grief for using the cars internal mpg meter for measuring mpg. One thing everyone can agree is that its right within 2-3 mpg. Well, thats great in my opinion. Otherwise to get your accurate mpg is a real fustercluck. Many gas tanks use a bladder that monkey around with the total capacity. Many gas stations have uneven parking lots so the fuel level may vary depending on pump used. Fuel or any liquid changes in volume based on temperature, so you may buy 10 gallons on a 100 degree day, but the next morning when its 60 degrees you got 9.3 gallons in your tank.

Then you got the mpge. If I am buying 10%e and 90% gas, how should I log that?

[Hypermiler1995]

Originally Posted by P-hack

Edit, there are numerous free charging stations about too, so...

I live in redneckville, so I'm not sure where the closest charging station is!
The closest E-85 is probably 100+mi away