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Old 09-04-2013, 05:10 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Fat Charlie View Post
Come on, you're just making stuff up. They'd never do that!
NSA says you're "wrong" (wink,wink)

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Old 09-04-2013, 09:22 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Old Tele man View Post
The MORE control a HUMAN relinquishes, the LESS control that HUMAN has...

True, humans DO make mistakes, but who makes MORE mistakes MORE quickly, a human (slow) or a computer (very fast)?
In general, I trust a computer over a human, but computers are programmed by nerds, and I trust nerds more than stupid people!

Except regarding fashion advice!

This looks interesting: 48% of L.A. Crashes Are Hit-and-Runs - Alexander Abad-Santos - The Atlantic Wire

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According to data collected by the state, some 4,000 hit-and-run crashes a year inside L.A. city limits, [...] resulted in injury and/or death.
They said the nationwide average is eleven percent.

Humans do not necessarily develop the Three Laws of Robots and some people may not value the lives of others or feel remorse for what they have done, but in theory, a computer error could kill people.

There are all kinds of crazy drivers out there and honestly, I get bored driving. I would like to see something developed that does not drunk-text and drive.
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Old 09-04-2013, 10:41 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Maybe there could be special lanes for these vehicles and people could have the option to drive themselves or get into a car conga line...
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See my car's mod & maintenance thread and my electric bicycle's thread for ongoing projects. I will rebuild Black and Green over decades as parts die, until it becomes a different car of roughly the same shape and color. My minimum fuel economy goal is 55 mpg while averaging posted speed limits. I generally top 60 mpg. See also my Honda manual transmission specs thread.

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Old 09-05-2013, 12:28 AM   #14 (permalink)
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I don't see hacking as being an issue with a properly secured system. The problem with TPMS is that those systems basically have no security, and getting the car into a tizzy fit by messing with one would be ridiculously easy if you figure out what signals to send.

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Also, eventually, we could make the communication passive. I imagine it would be much like programming "flocking" behaviour into the cars, in which each car independently chooses how close or how far from the car ahead to travel. It will also monitor the cars behind to ensure optimum safety when accelerating or decelerating.

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Hell... teach the computers to "glide"... like birds do when flying in formation... that would be awesome.
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Old 09-05-2013, 10:43 AM   #15 (permalink)
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I'm only a parts guy, but here's my basic understanding: The TPMS module recieves signals on a specific frequency and simply registers the fact that it's getting signals from four different sensors and that means everything's happy. When one sensor gets unhappy or fails, the tire light comes on. A new TPMS sensor is registered to a vehicle by installing it and driving around a while. The car eventually accepts that one of the four it was used to is gone and logs the new sensor as being proper.

While getting into a system through an unsecured wireless connection is tempting, I think this would be just about as useful a way to take over a car as tapping into the wire from the oil pressure switch. You would now have the power to turn on someone's oil light at will- Muahahaha! Being able to do that wirelessly would be more convenient than tapping a wire, but I can't see what you would do with it- overwhelm the TPMS module?
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Transmission type Efficiency
Manual neutral engine off.100% @MPG <----- Fun Fact.
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CVT belt ............................88%
Automatic .........................86%

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Old 09-05-2013, 04:44 PM   #16 (permalink)
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hacking the platoons

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Originally Posted by Fat Charlie View Post
While getting into a system through an unsecured wireless connection is tempting, I think this would be just about as useful a way to take over a car as tapping into the wire from the oil pressure switch.
Maybe I got this thread a little off topic, so I'll make this the last from me on this. Here is a 2011 NYT piece:

"March 9, 2011
Researchers Show How a Car’s Electronics Can Be Taken Over Remotely
By JOHN MARKOFF

With a modest amount of expertise, computer hackers could gain remote access to someone’s car — just as they do to people’s personal computers — and take over the vehicle’s basic functions, including control of its engine, according to a report by computer scientists from the University of California, San Diego and the University of Washington.

Although no such takeovers have been reported in the real world, the scientists were able to do exactly this in an experiment conducted on a car they bought for the purpose of trying to hack it. Their report, delivered last Friday to the National Academy of Sciences’ Transportation Research Board, described how such unauthorized intrusions could theoretically take place.

Because many of today’s cars contain cellular connections and Bluetooth wireless technology, it is possible for a hacker, working from a remote location, to take control of various features — like the car locks and brakes — as well as to track the vehicle’s location, eavesdrop on its cabin and steal vehicle data, the researchers said. They described a range of potential compromises of car security and safety.

“This report explores how hard it is to compromise a car’s computers without having any direct physical access to the car,” said Stefan Savage of the University of California, San Diego, who is one of the leaders of the research effort.

Given that the researchers were able to do it, they are now trying to pinpoint just how hard it might be for others, he said.

The car security study is one of a growing array of safety concerns that are emerging as the Internet comes in contact with almost every aspect of daily life, be it through financial systems or industrial controls. Computer security researchers have long argued that wholesale computerization and Internet connectivity of complex systems present new risks that are frequently exploited first by vandals with malicious intent.

The new report is a follow-on to similar research these experts conducted last year, which showed that cars were increasingly indistinguishable from Internet-connected computers in terms of vulnerability to outside intrusion and control. That project tried to show that the internal networks used to control systems in today’s cars are not secure in the face of a potential attacker who has physical access to the vehicle.

Their latest study was the first time that independent computer security researchers have tried to show how potential attackers could hack into a car from a remote location.

As in their first experiment, the research teams bought a car they described as a representative example of a moderately priced sedan. (They declined to identify the brand, saying that advanced telematics are rapidly becoming commonplace within the automotive industry.)

“In the case of every major manufacturer, if they do not have this capacity in their mainstream products, they’re about to,” said Tadayoshi Kohno, an assistant professor in the department of computer science and engineering at the University of Washington.

For example, services like General Motors’ OnStar system, Toyota’s Safety Connect, Lexus’s Enform, Ford’s Sync, BMW’s Assist and Mercedes Benz’s Mbrace all use a cellular connection embedded in the vehicle to provide a variety of automated and call center support services to a driver. These subscription services make it possible to track a car’s location, unlock doors remotely and control other functions.

In their remote experiment, the researchers were able to undermine the security protecting the cellular phone in the vehicle they bought and then insert malicious software. This allowed them to send commands to the car’s electronic control unit — the nerve center of a vehicle’s electronics system — which in turn made it possible to override various vehicle controls.

“These cellular channels offer many advantages for attackers,” the report said. “They can be accessed over arbitrary distance (due to the wide coverage of cellular data infrastructure) in a largely anonymous fashion, typically have relatively high bandwidth, are two-way channels (supporting interactive control and data exfiltration), and are individually addressable.”

The researchers declined to speculate about the worse situations, such as interfering with a vehicle’s control system to make it crash. However, they noted that their research showed how a next-generation car thief might operate: instead of using today’s so-called smash and grab tactics, the thief might be able to simply dial up a parked car, unlock its doors and turn on the engine, then arrive on the scene and drive off.

In addition to the cellular telephone vulnerability, the report details similar weaknesses in other systems that allow remote access, including short range wireless networks like Bluetooth, network ports used for car maintenance and even internal CD players.

The researchers noted that their report was about potential vulnerabilities and said there was no evidence that the safety loopholes they discovered had been used by criminals. They also said they believed that the automotive industry was treating the threats responsibly and working to improve the security of modern automobiles.

“Everyone has taken this extremely seriously,” said Dr. Savage. "

And this article shows what some hackers were able to do with ideal conditions (this link is not specifically about wireless hacking):
Hackers Reveal Nasty New Car Attacks--With Me Behind The Wheel (Video) - Forbes

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See my car's mod & maintenance thread and my electric bicycle's thread for ongoing projects. I will rebuild Black and Green over decades as parts die, until it becomes a different car of roughly the same shape and color. My minimum fuel economy goal is 55 mpg while averaging posted speed limits. I generally top 60 mpg. See also my Honda manual transmission specs thread.

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