Is this a silly idea? - Page 2 - Fuel Economy, Hypermiling, EcoModding News and Forum

sid · 07-19-2013, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Ha Ha "electric bill is zero"- I think not. See my previous post.

My electric bill was zero for the first 6 months of this year and the first 10 months of last year. I generate enough surplus electricity from my grid tied solar electric system to cancel out my hookup fee most of the year.

Frank Lee · 07-20-2013, 01:33 AM

Not at generating 100% of usage as noted.

owly · 09-09-2013, 01:25 PM

Storage of energy can take many forms other than batteries. For example if you are on a well as I am, additional pressure tanks can store pressurized water when the sun is shining (or wind is blowing) so you don't have to draw grid power when it's not.
Heat and cold are easy to store and cheap to store. Put in several hot water heaters, well insulated, and when you have power, heat water. Likewise engineered fluids are capable of storing large amounts of energy due to "heat of fusion". It takes many many times more energy to make the transition from solid to liquid or liquid to solid than what is required merely to raise water one degree F. We are all familiar with "blue ice". There are other fluids engineered to freeze and thaw at various favorable temps. Run your refrigeration system when you have power from your home system to freeze an engineered fluid. That fluid could greatly reduce the grid power usage of your refrigeration system.
Refrigeration and air conditioning are the largest power usages in your home........ and of course electric water heaters, and electric heating systems. (go to gas...it's a lot cheaper).
My monthly power bill runs about $35.00, and would be significantly cheaper if I didn't run 7 27" computer monitors in my stock trading system.
We all know the value of insulation, and of good windows, as well of properly shading windows to block thermal energy in the summer and allow it in in cold weather. Lots of natural lighting, windows and solar tubes............but most folks are working during the day, and home at night. Battery power and LED strip lighting makes sense for lighting, particularly if you have sensors that turn lights on when people are present in the room. It doesn't take much battery storage to handle lighting issues, and LED strips are typically 12V, and adhesive. They come in a reel and are inexpensive. Would make good indirect room lighting.

A penny saved is a penny earned............. The engineered fluids I mentioned earlier work for storing heat.......... Imagine having a container in the trunk of your car with a system that allowed exhaust heat to be used to melt an engineered "fluid" that "froze" at 150 deg F.............. Driving to work and back, you would capture wasted energy from your car............ Pack or pump into the home heating system and that waste heat could heat your home in the winter. Instead of worrying about MPG, worry about total dollars spent on transportation and heating............ Who really cares where the savings is?? 80% of our gasoline energy is going to waste......... as heat. Does it make sense to pump heat into the atmosphere and then burn gas or electricity to heat our homes?

Then there are a host of ways we can use solar heat energy directly........ from heating water to cooking food..............

Howard

Cobb · 02-09-2014, 08:43 PM

We have a kilowatt solar grid tie setup. It knocks 50 bucks off the power bill in 9 months of the year. At times the power meter stops, sometimes rolls backwards. Its a hobby and started at 100 watts.

I was going to sell my setup a few years ago til I found how much my mother loved the fact it lowered the power bill. I kept it and added 300 watts in polycrystal panels and 2 mo 250 watt gtis.

Our power company charges a service fee and a per kw fee. If we used no power, we would still have a fee.

Ford Man · 02-15-2014, 01:07 AM

I don't use the electric furnace in my house, but in the summer I do that with my a/c. We have one bedroom (approximately 200sf.) that we don't use on a regular basis so I close the door, close and cover the air vent with a heavy book or other object to prevent air seepage and place towels between the bottom of the door and floor.

In the winter we use a Monitor 20K BTU thermostatically controlled vented kerosene heater to heat our home. I also keep that same bedroom closed off during the winter and cover all the air vents in the house to the electric heating/air duct with a piece of radiant barrier held down with magnets to keep the cold air from coming up into the house from the duct system which is routed underneath the house and keep from losing heat out through the duct work. This has been an unusually cold winter for us and since we started using heat around the middle of Oct. 2013 I've used about $500. worth of kerosene to heat about 1200sf our home to 68* during the daytime and 64* at night. Kerosene is $4.399 per gallon here so I've used just over 100 gallons so far this winter. I also had radiant barrier placed under the metal roof when the roof was replaced in 2011 which has helped with heating/cooling costs.

Cobb · 02-15-2014, 12:07 PM

Do you have a link for your vented kero heater?

Ford Man · 02-17-2014, 01:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobb

Do you have a link for your vented kero heater?

Here's a link to Monitor's homepage. Monitor Products I didn't check the web page, but there's probably contact information there for the company. If so contact them they should be able to give you information for one of their product distributors in your area or if you do a web search for "Monitor heaters" it might turn up someone in your area.

When I bought mine in 1996 I lived in NC, but when I moved from NC to KY in 2010 I removed the heater from the house there, covered the hole for the vent tube and brought it to KY with me since there are no dealers in this area.

Monitor has quit making the kerosene units, but they are still available from many suppliers. Since kerosene prices have increased over the last several years I suspect their sales were down on the kerosene units so they have gone to making a similar unit that operates on propane and from what I've heard and read they are very economical to operate as well.

If you buy one of their kerosene heaters new it will likely be a newer model than the one I'm currently using in my house and has a time/temperature selector you can set up to 4 different time/temperatures per day for a week in advance, so if your weekday and weekend schedule are different you can set it up accordingly.

The model number of mine is a 422 (20K BTU), the larger unit of that same era is a model 441 (40K BTU) which they claim will heat up to 2000sf and with the performance I've received with my 422 I have no reason to doubt it.

On account of parts availability I wouldn't recommend going with a unit any older than the 4 I mention in this post. Monitor is still making service parts for their kerosene units and are currently scheduled to make them though 2014, but I don't think even when they quit making the service parts they will be out of circulation for many years, my guess would be upward of 20 years or more because, some parts can still be found for their earliest models which I think were made in the 80's, but I'm not sure of the manufacture date on the first of their units.

My 422 is 18 years old, they discontinued that model several years ago and far as I know any replacement parts needed for it are still available.

The model numbers of the last of the kerosene units they made were the 2200 (20K BTU) and the 2400 (40K BTU).

If you can't get any information on the kerosene units and that's what you want send me a PM and I'll give you the information to a supplier I know about in NC where I bought my burn chamber rebuild kit from in 2012, they also sell new units.

You might also check eBay, often there will be used units on there that people are selling. Sometimes the eBay units are pretty nice looking units and sometimes they're pretty rough. I've also seen some suppliers selling new units on eBay.

My son bought a used unit (422) off of eBay a couple years ago for $500. + $50. shipping that had minimal usage in California. He had it shipped to my house and it looked and worked as good as new. We disconnected my Monitor and put his in it's place (about a 10 minute job) and ran it for a couple weeks to make sure it was going to run without any problems before drilling a hole in his wall to make the installation.

If you need/want more information feel free to send a PM, I'll be glad to help anyway I can.

I think I noticed you were from VA so I feel pretty confident there would be some dealers in your area.

Many people in the northeastern US and Alaska use the Monitor heaters because they are so efficient.

If you can't get information on or find a Monitor, Toyotomi still makes kerosene units and are very similar to the Monitor and have about the same efficiency rating. ToyotomiUSA - Homepage I'm not sure, but I think Rinnai may also make some kerosene units that are also very efficient. #1 Selling Tankless Water Heater in US | Rinnai

If you do buy one of these type heaters BE SURE TO UNPLUG IT DURING THE SPRING/SUMMER AND ANY OTHER TIME THERE ARE THUNDERSTORMS IN THE AREA. THERE ARE ELECTRONIC CIRCUIT BOARDS THAT ARE SENSITIVE TO CURRENT SPIKES AND ARE VERY EXPENSIVE TO REPLACE. I always unplug mine in the spring and leave it unplugged until fall of the year. If a thunderstorm with lightning involved comes up during the months it's plugged in I unplug it until the thunderstorms pass. My neighbor in NC left his plugged up year around, it got a surge from lightning one time which cost him about $600. in repairs and that was in the '90's or early '00's so who know what it would cost today.

Less than 10 hours left on this eBay auction of a Monitor 441 Monitor Heater 441 | eBay, if I contacted them and found the heater was in good working order and shipping costs weren't outrageous I'd say this would be a good deal if it goes for the opening bid cost of $650. or slightly over. If you were close enough to pick it up in person they're even including an outdoor 275 gallon tank and 40' of copper tubing to hook it up which I think is a great deal. I think they made that unit from about 1995-2000 so it's probably between 14 and 19 years old. This is the large unit that's capable of heating up to 2000sf and was about a $1300. unit new back in 1996 when I bought my 422. With the this model you do have to run it off of an outside fuel source, no capsule tank. The 422 can be run off of a 1.32 gallon capsule tank or it can be hooked up to an outside fuel source.

If anyone buys one of these heaters let me know, I have some valuable information I can pass on to you. It's the Monitor service manual that tells how to troubleshoot problems and gives all the electronic specifications for testing electronic components within the heater. Very few dealers will even sell a copy to Monitor owners, therefore it's nearly impossible to get your hands on, but I lucked up and found a PDF copy a couple years ago and saved it to my hard drive.

To the owner of this thread and other members, I'm sorry for hijacking the thread and when I started this reply I hadn't planned on writing a book, but it looks like I succeeded.

order99 · 02-17-2014, 01:49 AM

Hatman-I have precicely the dual-voltage system you envision...

A 2006 Jayco 29' Travel Trailer with both 110v and 12v circuitry, hookup to campground power and battery backup with built-in inverter. All I need to do is expand my battery pack from 1 to say, 6, add some Solar panels and go nuts on closed foam insulation, and i'm set-assuming the campground gives me the go-ahead to set up a stationary solar bank at the angle I want...also, the Propane heater array has this beautiful intake vent that will allow me to plug in one of my Soup Can Solar Thermal units directly into the existing heating ducts...

{What I will NOT have is the ability to sell back power-campgrounds just don't DO that. Also, I need to create another Soup Can Unit-the couple I sold my three bedroom, two bath house to were so impressed by my winter power usage they asked me to leave my mods (triple-wrapped pipes, dual Soup Can Units and bubble wrap on the already state-of-the-art windows...total cost of under $80 ) I recommended they visit this Forum of course...}

As to Grid-tie systems in general...i'm not impressed. Several neighbors (well former neighbors as of two weeks ago) spent roughly $40,000+ on the Grid-tie system, and while there was some reduction, the 'progressive' metering system of the Co-op meant that they paid more per KWH, much as I did with my more modest Eco-mods.In addition, they still lost power during a blackout. Two of my neighbors eventually upgraded an extra $20,000 in panels in order to push thier bills into modest returns-which won't pay for itself for nearly 18 years...my other neighbor spent an extra $35,000 to convert into a fully off-grid facility-she won't see a real profit either but feels beter knowing she can play host to her street in a emergency.

If I were going for an independent dual system like the one you described Hatman-i'd most likely try to place a few of my most vital system (say, fridge/freezer, water pump if you have a well, one string of lights, one 'special outlet' for a single 110/120V directly to the battery pack for one or two emergency plug-ins like electric heaters and a hot plate) on dual switches. If you could run a single circuit through a few vital systems-with switches to move those facilities from circuit A to circuit B-that would probably be the least invasive(and least expensive) approach. My new (to me) RV simply switches everything at once to battery if the power goes out-which is fine for a relatively small dwelling, but my refrigerator has a manual setting for triple use-Mains, Battery and Propane-which sort of illustrates what i'm rambling about...

I assume that you've already checked the guidelines in your State to see if you're allowed to do this (NC guidelines are one of the many reasons I sold my house in the first place-I do NOT like being told what I can do with my own property!!!). Failing that, I'm assuming you'll have the skillset you need to do the job yourself...best of luck.

BTW Ford Man-I love the idea of a 'safe' Kerosene heater, this is the first i've heard of it. I had a heater myself in case of winter blackout in my former home, but I dreaded the fumes...I would have had a woodstove myself but I wasn't willing to blow $7000+ on an electric fan insert, and NC wouldn't sign off on my $20 hand-made unit no matter how many times thier OWN INSPECTOR signed off the Safety Approval (yes my little feud has long-term roots...). Not to derail this Thread, but i'm curious as to your layout...do you have plenty of room facing the South, with two or more windows and room for some Thermal Mass tanks , either sand or water based? PM me, I may have some cheap ideas for you, and if you think they're worth it we'll start a different thread ( HINT: it involves Soupcan Thermal and transmission through coils snaking through Thermal Mass storage...)