The Slow Death of the Internal Combustion Engine

[oil pan 4]

Originally Posted by Xist

My last supervisor insisted that a reel mower was rotary.

That was pretty much my entire experience there, my supervisor telling me that easily-proven statements were wrong.

Sounds like dod too.

[Xist]

Virtually every time I asked a Sergeant a question they demonstrated "It is better to be confident than wrong."

[NeilBlanchard]

Originally Posted by Taylor95

Looks like we have several automakers on the electric pickup bandwagon now. I'm interested to see how well these things are received.

On a different note, I don't think we ever discussed how heavy these electric cars are. I think the Tesla model 3 tips out at 4000 lbs. It is probably terrible to drive on the snow.

Electric cars are barely any heavier than comparable cars. They carry that weight very low, and often have far lower Cg than most other cars. The Model S has a Cg just 16" above the ground - that is lower than the Subaru BRZ, which is 18", I think?

Weight can be a good thing in the snow and ice.

Electric drive trains have much better traction control - the control of an electric motor makes electric cars much better in the winter.

[Taylor95]

Not really. My Jeep weighs around 3000 lbs and my wife's subaru is around 3400 lbs. With the lightest model 3 being around 3700 lbs, that is a significant difference of 10-25%.

I can see the added weight helping in fresh snow, but definitely not ice. It is much harder to control a heavier vehicle on ice regardless where the cg is. Not to mention the extra weight will increase the distance it takes to stop. The biggest difference in these conditions are the tires you have, or chains. I'm not sure if there are any good tires for snow that will fit on Tesla's 20" wheels.

[redpoint5]

Who cares if EVs are the best on snow or not? They do ok, and for most of the population, ok is good enough. Snow performance, weight, or Laguna Seca track times aren't what is slowing EV adoption. It's the horrible battery. Horrible in (almost) every measurable way to what it replaces; a gas tank. It's terribly expensive in comparison, takes way longer to "fill", holds less "fuel", shrinks in capacity over time, requires thermal management, weighs a lot more, takes up more space, and eventually requires replacement. Batteries are better than fuel tanks in that they are cheaper to "fill" and can be "filled" at home (unless you're among half of all people without access to charging at home).

Owning an EV does not preclude someone from owning something more off road capable, either.

[Taylor95]

Ok isn't good enough for many places in the country, including where I live. A consideration I make when purchasing a vehicle is how it will handle on snow packed roads. Many here don't think of that, and that results in missed work and car accidents.

The extra weight of EVs could be off set by good tires, but I'm just not sure what is available for those huge wheels Tesla has. An EV that has more rubber on the tires can certainly perform well. If a full size truck with 4x4 can handle well in the snow with A/T tires, an EV can too with good A/S tires.

[freebeard]

Looks like we have several automakers on the electric pickup bandwagon now. I'm interested to see how well these things are received.

What will sell them is tank steering.

https://electrek.co/2019/07/24/rivia...k-steer-video/

[Taylor95]

I should add that most people with EVs already own other cars, so snow probably isn't much of a concern to begin with.

[Xist]

I really like the idea of only needing one car, but I am always--looking for that crankshaft bolt!

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by Taylor95

Ok isn't good enough for many places in the country, including where I live. A consideration I make when purchasing a vehicle is how it will handle on snow packed roads. Many here don't think of that, and that results in missed work and car accidents.

The extra weight of EVs could be off set by good tires, but I'm just not sure what is available for those huge wheels Tesla has. An EV that has more rubber on the tires can certainly perform well. If a full size truck with 4x4 can handle well in the snow with A/T tires, an EV can too with good A/S tires.

As I said, the existence of EVs doesn't preclude the small number of people that need/want more capable vehicles from owning them. Snow performance is #97 on the list of things preventing EVs from gaining widespread adoption.

Trucks are generally terrible in snow with the exception of benefiting from more ground clearance. In my mind, ground clearance, weight distribution, and AWD is about the only practical consideration with respect to snow/ice performance. As long as a vehicle isn't pushing snow with the bumper, winter rated tires, studs, or chains will get the vehicle through any reasonable conditions. I've driven them all in the mountains and am very familiar with capabilities. Trucks suck unless the bed is weighted to give them neutral handling characteristics, and even then the long wheelbase works against maneuverability. My Subaru was better in every way except for ground clearance.

The majority of the population sticks to maintained (plowed, salted, rocked) roads. Just about any EV will do fine if appropriate tires are chosen. Why someone would take a Leaf or i3 up a logging road in the mountains in winter is beyond me.

I loved the ground clearance and low range of the Jeep Liberty I briefly owned. I "needed" that capability only 1 time to go up a steep and bouldery hill to camp at the top. If I didn't have the Jeep, I could have camped at the designated campground below or hiked my stuff to the top. I made the same drive in a Subaru Legacy several times (and multiple attempts), which required a running start and flooring it in 1st gear while doing a lot of steering and accepting some rock impacts to the frame. I bet the Tesla X would go up it no problem.

... and a simple search on Tirerack shows there are winter tires available for the X 20" wheels.



Rather than hypothesize that EVs might be terrible or merely ok in snow, I'd look for evidence. Plenty of Youtube videos out there. I've seen the Model X in conditions more extreme than I would ever encounter on a trip.