Some help with my voyager

[Nerys]

I have a 96 Plymouth Voyager. I love this vehicle so I want to try to wring some economy out of it. I would love to be able to hot 40mpg with it but I am doubtful thats possible.

HOW do I find out if I have body on frame or unibody? I just found out today in filling in my garage entry here that DAMN the thing masses out at 3700 pounds!!

Holy crap I did not for even a second think this was that heavy! WOW!

I am really hoping its body on frame as I have some killer ideas to make it a few hundred pounds lighter.

IS there any good threads for making a car lighter? I am not talking small things like panels and carpets and seats (this is a semi luxury family mover so I am not going to that length) I am talking BIG TIME lightening. Parts I can replace with aluminum or carbon. Things I can cut or put holes into etc.. (safety being of the utmost importance) I am talking IF I can get this thing down to 2000 pound range I want to try. that alone would boost me over 30mpg I bet!

I have been reading "tidbits" about people running 6cyl engines on just 4cyl.

Possible? How? Issues? Wear? IF its possible which 2 do I unplug (to test I can just yank the plug wires but to get economy I would need to unplug the injectors for those cylinders so no fuel is used.

Any other suggestions?

[diesel_john]

Can you post a pic? What type of driving? Technic is the least expensive fix. How much money do you want to spend to save money? Do you care how it looks?

[brick]

What drivetrain is in yours? Chrysler put a bunch of different engine/trans combinations in that generation of minivan.

[bhazard]

Minivans are car-based, so its a unibody.

[trikkonceptz]

Not being 100% sure, I think most mini vans are are unibody. How to tell? Look under your vehicle If the frame is mounted to the body via bolts, then you have a frame. If the frame structure looks like its welded to your underpan or looks like 1 piece with no gap, then you have a unibody.

Having experience with metal work, the skin on these vehicles is very thin to begin with. Your strength and stability come from bracing, like door beams reinforced A pillars etc ...

You will not be able to do any weight reduction on the outside without compromising safety. Start with the roof rack, remove the mudflaps, clean out your interior, remove any extra seating and paneling that you are not using and start driving smarter .. I'm afraid your Voyager isn't an airstream .. LOL

[RH77]

Originally Posted by bhazard

Minivans are car-based, so its a unibody.

This is true -- except for the Chevy/GMC Astro/Safari, which is body-on-frame. GM was really late to car-based minivan arena.

Running a 6 on 4 (or best 3, in your case) isn't practical because the O2 sensor will compensate by dumping more fuel into the working cylinders. Tried it myself -- it didn't work.

Rule of thumb: Aero efforts outweigh weight reduction. Take a look at the aero forum for details.

I'm not sure you could replace parts with aluminum cheaply (or carbon fiber). It actually would be cheaper to do an engine swap. They made a 2.4L for the Chrysler vans. If you could mate it to a stick shift, even better. 1000 lbs is a tall order. I might first start with driving technique and gradually work into aero and underhood stuff.

My 2-pence

RH77

[trikkonceptz]

Good Point there ^^^, manual transmission are lighter than auto's too. If you can do that conversion you may get a decent weight loss there ..

[Nerys]

Off course technique is paramount. I have been "supermiling" for over 15 years now (not hypoermiling but "milking" them for mpg so I figure super is less than hyper) hehe

I have always been able to beat EPA estimates without much effort (at least until ethanol came in and ruined my day)

As for costs. I have no money so most of this is gonna be DIY. Looks are CRITICAL to me but I am a good finisher. Anything I do will have been molded and painted to match so I am not worried about looks. The more like a rocket it looks the happier I am (thats just me)

I am already going to ditch the rack. I DO use the rack from time to time so I am thinking about removing the spars and aero modding the longitudinals (they are already pretty darned clean) I also plan on filling everything and repainting to really get a nice smooth skin out of it. Body panel imprints and molded dimpals all filled in. IE thats something I can do myself cheaply. Bondo Carbon reinforce and then $200 macco job :-)

I plan this summer to build a whol new bumper for the front. I can not afford an engine swap just yet. IF I ever went that route I would be more intersted in going diesel but Grrr I hate those FWD trans axles.

The panels have to stay. This is my DD and Travel car looks are important. I took one off and massed it. 11 pounds. I would save no more than fifty pounds removing the panels. If its not dropping 100's of pounds and its not aero I am not really going to mess with it.

Is there a way to reprogram OR use a different O2 sensor? IE its a computer its just a matter of figure out how to dictate orders to it right? What about an O2 sensor FROM the 4cylinder engine?

3 cylinders at 3700 pounds? not sure that would work too well (plus my significant mass :-) I am a big boy at 6'4" :-)

I am just blow away this thing masses so high. The Voyager is actually a pretty nice shape aerodynamically. Its got lots of frontal because of its overall size but the front half lends itself well to possible aero mods. The rear is another store. Might as well be the a flat plate. Definitely gonna have aero that. I never realized these kamma back techniques could be so effective on cars. I have enough frontal so no airdam. Gonna clean up the front and skin the bottom.

How do you skinners handle the heat from the exhaust? Safety issues flare up red alerts in my mind when I think full belly skin.

I am thinking about forced air cooling for the engine bay. Run channel along the bottom from the BACK of the car to the engine bay and they back out to the back of the car again. IE its already draggy there so I would do the least damage sucking and blowing air from there. My "aux" fan already kicks now and then idling (cooling system is good just nature of the FWD configuration)

Where do I find this Electric water pump? HOW do I eliminate the hard pump?

HOW do I find out if manual steering was an option on this car? Is it as simpl as calling and asking the dealer (I am thinking it NEVER had manual steering as an option)

I just got 5 hubcaps today for 98cents a pop. Ugly ass spoke ones very non aero but I am going to use them as the base for a pie pan conversion like I saw you guys do. Very nice. NOW question. the tire is a hair wider than the rim. this is going to create a "depressed" surface IE low pressure region. would I be better off with a slight moon cap to offset this suck zone is is it small enough that the gains from the flat plate overwhelm the losses from the low pressure creation?

Once its warmer I am going to looking into mounting things to the A Arms so I can add aero effects to the wheels that will reach withing an inch of the road surface. If I can effectively mount them to the A arms rigidly enough (carbon fun) the aero mods will "move" with the suspension and never touch the ground or bumps.

I think I really need to work on mass reduction. Where the hell are they stuffing 3700 pounds in this thing? its a rather small vehicle as vans go. One of the reasons I got the voyager was its HIGHER than most minivans so my 6'4" fits without my head being bent against the ceiling forcing me to slouce in the seat which is very uncomfortable. I like sitting straight up and am willing to eat the aero consequences of that :-) I sometimes do 10-15-20+ hour drives. Comfort becomes a safety issue on drives like that.

I just can not see anything "heavy" in this car. I could probably drop 100+ pounds just by not carrying the rear bench seat!! (its EASILY masses over 100 pounds I have trouble lifting it (its ackward too)

I am thinking of taking my own advice and getting some fold and go minivan seats to replace the middle bench with and just installing the rear bench when I need to carry 6+ people. Just got to find some nice grey ones to match the existing interior.

If I can replace remove BOTH benches and install some fold and go seating for 90% of my driving I would easily be 200 pounds lighter. That gets me down to 3500 pounds.

I am also going to look into aero modding my Clubwagon. If I can just get that to over 20mpg I would save HUNDREDS of dollars in gasoline!! (on some vacations I spend over $1000 in fuel just for that trip.) 2000-3000 miles plus local driving and then some adds up fast at 12-15 mpg :-) at 13mpg average and a 2500mile trip thats $660 in fuel. at 20mpg thats $429 Thats a $231 Savings IN ONE SINGLE TRIP!! So yeah I want to work on that too :-)

back to the voyager.

Mines an auto I detect 4 shift points and I know it has OD so thats 3 speed with OD. I do not think it ever came with a manual tranny option. I will try to find out. Would gladly go stick if its possible. I might have to replace the tranny in the coming year anyway (feel a 3/4 shudder coming on) so if i can go manual would want to know ahead of time.

I sometimes tow so I do need the power now and then. I would love to find an electronic means to shut down cylinders. I bet I could cruise on 3 for most of my commute (very level terrain few stops) I could see using 4 to accelerate and then flipping a switch for 3cyl mode.

How would I begin the work to reprogram the computer to NOT compensate with more fuel? Could it be as simple as multiple O2 sensors? or is it NOT the sensor but the computers interpretation of what the sensor is saying. if its the latter there might be a way to "dummy" the signal to tell the computer what I Want it to do. I am envisioning a ROTARY knob left for less fuel right for more fuel. if the van is not running right I just adjust the knob which would adjust the O2 sensor output. I have NO idea how one would do this but its an idea.

Money is no object if I can "spread" it out. An engine swap is an upfront you need all the money now expense which is why its a problem :-)

How do you handle engine balancing issues when killing cylinders?

Thanks for the suggestions keep them coming!

I will get some pictures online for you guys to look at. Check the garage for the specs. I found out it pushes 158hp not bad did not think it had that much grunt and does not feel it either. Thats the 3700 pounds coming into play there :-)

Here is a picture from google of a nearly identical van to mine. Externally its exactly the same.

http://tinyurl.com/563ubp

Thanks!

[metroschultz]

Your V'Ger is really a "K" car on growth hormones.
I love "K" cars .
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php?t=642
You should be able to get the manual steering from a Shadow or Sundance and make it work with little or no effort.
Same goes for the manual tranny.
These are great little drivetrains.
There only real congenital birth defect was soft autotrans clutch packs. Sometimes the packs would die before the car was out of warranty and other times they lasted till 150k miles..
Also look to the Dodge Caravan for parts, I believe some of those were "Economy Models" meaning they did not get auto trans and power everything(steering incl).
So find an 95 Shadow, 2.2 4cyl, 5spd, manual steering, and you have everything you need to swap and play.
Hope this helps,
Schultz.

[zjrog]

I'd agree with finding Kcar parts if the van was 95 or older. A lot of things changed (moved away from Kcar) in 96 and later. Now, if you had the Mitsubishi made 3.0 liter, you could pull the 5 speed manual from a Shadow or Daytona. The 3.0 was used through about 2000, but emissions rules made it obsolete. It was offered with two automatics through about 98, a 3 speed with torque converter lock (felt a lot like a shift too), and a 4 speed auto with TC lock. That basic motor turned out to be a decent 2.5 V6 in the Avenger. A 2.4 was indeed offered starting in 96. And the same motor was the basis for the SRT4 Neons, so you could have a turbocharged van that COULD give reasonable mileage and power when needed. But near as I remember, the 2.4 was never offered with a manual trans in the minivans, but always with the 4 speed auto. There were a few 2.4s in the Stratus/Breeze/Cirrus cars that had a 5 speed, so parts are available. The 5 speed behind the turbo 2.4 is a heavy duty/heavy weight piece of machinery.

The 3.3 and the 3.8 V6s are very good motors for the most part. A billion of the 3.3s were unleashed upon the world and every single one of them in every platform had the automatic with overdrive (4 speed).

Now, once upon a time, I used to own a 87 Grand Caravan. I had the 3.0 (first year of the V6 and the stretch), and was limited to the 3 speed auto. I seem to remember my old minivan weighing in under 3500 pounds though. In 96 when the jelly bean shape came out, many minivan fans were surprised with the new portliness of the newly remodeled vans.

I have yet to see an aftermarket method of disabling cylinders that works. I do know that after 92 or 93, 3.0/3.3/3.8 electronic fuel injection systems switched from batch fire (one bank of three at a time) to sequential firing.