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Old 12-29-2010, 09:47 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ceej View Post
If your Serious about waking the Dart Lite from it's nap, contact DusterIdiot over on dot org and see if he has any parts left from his work with them. I know he had a couple Feathers. One had all the aluminum goodies, and Wildcat had a few bits as well. Some were shipped with aluminum deck lids as well as the aluminum hoods. He may also be a good source for a correct Four speed and the parts to convert.
CJ
Hell I dunno. I have the stuff to swap over to the 4 speed. I also have a spare /6 that I could check out, and slap the assembly in at one time. Mine is alum hood, steel deck lid, and 2.94 gears. I was lurking around .org yesterday to see how involved a TBI swap on the Dart Lite would be. I would be curious how well the Dart Lite could be hypermiled with EFI of some sort (Prefer MPI, but TBI would be ok), the 4 speed OD installed properly.
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Originally Posted by JakeC View Post
I owned a 1995 Nissan 200sx Se-r (same as the sentra) with a 5 speed, and i averaged around 32 mpg. I could get around 380 miles on a tank while at the time not caring about fuel economy. I do miss that car, and i'm kicking myself for selling it to buy a jeep. I've also owned a 1996 nissan sentra, with 216,XXX miles, and it was probably one of the nicest vehicles i've driven. They do last a long time and get pretty good gas mileage. But they do tend to hold their value, so it might be difficult in finding one for under a grand.
Not sure why the Sentra is calling my name? 32 MPG is 2x what I am getting now, so it sure sounds appealing.

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Old 12-29-2010, 11:33 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Just remember that no matter what you do to that A body it will never have the mileage potential of a 1.6 liter/5speed Sentra. The Dart/Duster is about as aerodynamic as a brick wall and has too much weight to haul around. Plus, the A-833/OD has a terrible ratio spread and was one of those stop-gap measures (like the Ford SROD) of the late 70's to try and get more mileage out of old parts rather than just designing new ones.

If anything I would consider a Borg Warner T-5 behind the /6, but I don't know if you can find a bellhousing ( try Keisler engineering). If you do, consider the T-5 from behind either a 4 cylinder Mustang or a 4.3 V6 S-10. (GM and Ford used different bolt patterns on their T-5's). It will have a deeper 1st gear to get the leaning tower of power moving but should still have a 25-30% overdrive ratio. The GM 60 degree V6 T-5 is set up the same way but uses a unique input shaft length that likely will not be covered in the conversion bellhousing.

As for cheap EFI, it's gonna be hard to do on the /6. You will have to fabricate an intake manifold adapter for the throttle body off of another vehicle. Supposedly the GM TBI is not that complicated, but you will run right smack up against the lack of a ignition module signal that the system needs to determine when to fire the injector. Alternately, you could run it off of a Megasquirt (or the Spectre variant of it) which does not need to touch the ignition. The early (89-91) 3 cylinder Metro also does not read the ignition and uses a standard distributor, but I do not know how you would go about calibrating the ECU for an engine 4x larger. It may just work by using a bigger injector ( I would try the TBI off of a GM 4.3 V6) but it may not.

I'll also say that you should get something extremely efficient NOW or as soon as you can find it. Gas prices will soon spike again and some believe they will hit $5 a gallon this time. By the time everyone wakes up to this fact it will be too late and you won't be able to touch a good 90's economy car for less than $5,000. All the SUV owners will suddenly develop what I like to call "Metro-envy" and buy up these old gems in a panic like they did last time. The only thing is that this time the prices will NOT come back down as this time it is not a speculative bubble. Instead, it is being driven by a dollar weakened by the irresponsible quantitative easing strategy which has seen the US Treasury DOUBLE the number of US dollars in circulation since 2009. This will seriously undermine the currency and is one of the main reasons why food and commodity prices are already spiking. Get one now if you can. It will act as a hedge to protect you from what is to come.
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Old 12-30-2010, 09:50 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim-Bob View Post
Just remember that no matter what you do to that A body it will never have the mileage potential of a 1.6 liter/5speed Sentra. The Dart/Duster is about as aerodynamic as a brick wall and has too much weight to haul around. Plus, the A-833/OD has a terrible ratio spread and was one of those stop-gap measures (like the Ford SROD) of the late 70's to try and get more mileage out of old parts rather than just designing new ones.
True, the Dart will never equal a newer car in technology, aerodynamics, and weight. However, part of the appeal of the Dart, is such: I already own it, and any money I put into it will be increasing the value of a vintage car.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim-Bob View Post
If anything I would consider a Borg Warner T-5 behind the /6, but I don't know if you can find a bellhousing ( try Keisler engineering). If you do, consider the T-5 from behind either a 4 cylinder Mustang or a 4.3 V6 S-10. (GM and Ford used different bolt patterns on their T-5's). It will have a deeper 1st gear to get the leaning tower of power moving but should still have a 25-30% overdrive ratio. The GM 60 degree V6 T-5 is set up the same way but uses a unique input shaft length that likely will not be covered in the conversion bellhousing.
I would love a 5 speed, and I know the ratios on the 4 speed OD are not optimal, but in the grand scheme of being eco minded, is to use what you have and not waste. In this case, I have the 4 speed OD already, and a spare /6, so I could mate the 2, and drop them in over a weekend. Anything Keisler is good stuff but, but out of my price range. I have 375.00 into the OD trans, shifter, linkage, AND spare /6 with another 4 speed OD (long shaft, B or E Body). I probably couldn't buy a bellhousing from Keisler for that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim-Bob View Post
As for cheap EFI, it's gonna be hard to do on the /6. You will have to fabricate an intake manifold adapter for the throttle body off of another vehicle. Supposedly the GM TBI is not that complicated, but you will run right smack up against the lack of a ignition module signal that the system needs to determine when to fire the injector. Alternately, you could run it off of a Megasquirt (or the Spectre variant of it) which does not need to touch the ignition. The early (89-91) 3 cylinder Metro also does not read the ignition and uses a standard distributor, but I do not know how you would go about calibrating the ECU for an engine 4x larger. It may just work by using a bigger injector ( I would try the TBI off of a GM 4.3 V6) but it may not.
You know your stuff, there isn't any dirty cheap options here. I am researching on the slant six site on a TBI swap, there are enough TBI 4.3 running around. I am researching, but it may be a carb for a while.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim-Bob View Post
I'll also say that you should get something extremely efficient NOW or as soon as you can find it. Gas prices will soon spike again and some believe they will hit $5 a gallon this time. By the time everyone wakes up to this fact it will be too late and you won't be able to touch a good 90's economy car for less than $5,000. All the SUV owners will suddenly develop what I like to call "Metro-envy" and buy up these old gems in a panic like they did last time. The only thing is that this time the prices will NOT come back down as this time it is not a speculative bubble. Instead, it is being driven by a dollar weakened by the irresponsible quantitative easing strategy which has seen the US Treasury DOUBLE the number of US dollars in circulation since 2009. This will seriously undermine the currency and is one of the main reasons why food and commodity prices are already spiking. Get one now if you can. It will act as a hedge to protect you from what is to come.
This is scary.
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Old 12-30-2010, 03:56 PM   #24 (permalink)
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For the times when I can't ride my motorcycle, i recently bought a 99' Saturn SL1 5spd with a 1.9L SOHC 4cyl engine. Got it for $700, needed very minor things like a shift bushing and what not. The best tank I had so far was 48mpg, shortly after i bought the car in october. The worst tank I had so far was 38mpg, and that's in freezing temps with winter gas. I'd imagine in the summer I'll be able to break 50mpg, if i need to drive a car to get where I'm going. The car has a .32 drag coefficient and weighs 2400lbs. With some aeromods i'd probably see some significant gains.
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Old 12-30-2010, 04:35 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theycallmeebryan View Post
For the times when I can't ride my motorcycle, i recently bought a 99' Saturn SL1 5spd with a 1.9L SOHC 4cyl engine. Got it for $700, needed very minor things like a shift bushing and what not. The best tank I had so far was 48mpg, shortly after i bought the car in october. The worst tank I had so far was 38mpg, and that's in freezing temps with winter gas. I'd imagine in the summer I'll be able to break 50mpg, if i need to drive a car to get where I'm going. The car has a .32 drag coefficient and weighs 2400lbs. With some aeromods i'd probably see some significant gains.
Must be the area, I can't seem to find a decent priced Saturn that doesn't have a blown motor, in this area. I am all for wrenching, but people want with a blown motor, what it should be worth running, a least around here?
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Old 12-30-2010, 04:40 PM   #26 (permalink)
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it is easy to confuse a working saturn with a saturn with a blown motor
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Old 12-30-2010, 09:28 PM   #27 (permalink)
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TBI won't help economy on the Dart due to the poor distribution of the OEM manifold. The only tested Multi-port systems that have had any substantial testing and use are the GM 3.8 batch systems. Sequential is possible with a crank trigger, but you join the ranks of the experimentals. Any single stage FI system won't improve economy. Applicable single stage EFI systems hold mixture control in a narrower range than a well tuned lean burn carb can do. Done right, a correctly set up carburetor can reliably deliver lean burn in the 17:1 range, which is about the limit of what the metalurgy and combustion chamber technology of the slant parts can tolerate. Fortunately, pistons can be replaced with more advanced designs and materials now. The problem being cost. There is very little that can be done about the head without major expenditures.

The Dart Lite had a very agressive timing curve, and gobs of EGR to avoid detonation. Keep the compression at stock, or lower to avoid problems if your running the OEM system.

Do you still have the original carburetor? They were not the same as the conventional Holley 1945 that was being used on cars during that era. Avoid the later lean burn systems. They were problematic.
The calibration was leaner on the Dart Lite and Feather Carb, and there was more signal to the vacuum amplifer for the EGR. Governer was a 15R in the distributor, and they carried a crazy vacuum advance can.
The guys that are providing reputable economy reports put the 4 speed car at about 34 mpg. Not the advertised 37, though at hypermiling speeds, it might just do it. Getting the full 55° of advance would require traveling at much higher engine speeds than would be legal.

Most of the guys serious about EFI on the slant seem to have taken setting up mega-squirt systems on as a long term hobby. I think Sam has been at it for ten years and is still fiddling around. He runs a T-5 also, but his calibration is aimed at power, not economy.
Most of the T-5 guys built their own parts to mount the tranny up. The only parts available for mating up different transmissions to the slant are for GM automatics. No over the counter parts available I'm afraid. Talk to Sandy about the five speed if your set on going that route. The final drive ratio is still 0.70 so no advantage, though it should be lighter than the O.D.
I'd say stick with the 4spd O.D. for simplicity.

The late cam could be changed out. Effectively, all those cars used the MP244. There are some options that are a bit less lift, and a wee bit less duration. I don't think it would amount to much. Those were the early grinds, and all it would amount to is less power. We still have to get 3600# rolling, and net power was 95 hp even on the normal slant cars. The cam profile technology today is much better than it was 40 and 50 years ago.
The Erson RV10M would be a nice addition. It's profile is closer to the 244, and lift is still reasonable. The lash ramps take advantage of the Mopar lifter size, so tip up and drop out quicker.

Check with DusterIdiot. Even running a modified split plenum Hyperpak manifold with the 390 Holley, he gets up around 26 mpg with the CompCams 252S. With less cam, a more reasonable intake manifold, and a slight nudge in compression, that could be the norm.
Small cross section 4 bbl intake would be the Offy. The Clifford short ram carries too much cross section for low RPM use. Drag racing yes, economy, no.
The new Hurricane can be had in a two barrel version. A 5200 series on that should work well, though in low temperatures heat soak would take a while, so economy wouldn't be great until the plenum floor heats up.
They also cost well over $400. They can be had with injector bungs if your set on spending your time with fuel curves and timing adustments.

I'll be retiring my modified Offy in a couple of years. The Triple DCOE Redline setup probably won't deliver very good mileage, but I only drive the rail a quarter mile at a time.

My daily driver is a 2 litre cargo van.



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Old 12-30-2010, 10:50 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Jake - I'm glad to see I'm not the only V8 ZJ on here!

Ceej has some good points. With the right setup, and possibly a few aero mods, I could see the Dart pulling mid 30s with no issue.
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Old 01-01-2011, 10:36 PM   #29 (permalink)
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I was looking for a Saturn 5spd because the Metros are hard to find here. I lucked out and stumbled onto the Metro I have now. Saturns get great mileage and I think it would be a great choice. I also think the Metro is the best platform to work with for gas. I wish I could have done a diesel VW.

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