SuperGeek Pictures, what do you all think?
 

Hey everyone!

I have been lurking for over 6 years...listening and learning...and figure it's time to share what I have been tinkering on for that entire time.. I call it the SuperGeek (pun intended), an enclosed ultralight that I hope will take the record for fuel economy this year... We have been through a few engines (Honda Twinstar, Lifan 125, Honda CBF125) and now are finally working with the Ninja 250. Please take a look and tell me what you think of it?

Have a great day!

Ray Vaughan

SuperGeek
 

Pictures...Sorry!

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...2&d=1499372782

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...3&d=1499372782

Welcome to the site Alien Vehicles. That is quite the fun looking project you have there. We would love to hear more about it, mileage, how it handles, etc.

Thanks Doax :-)

Well, the last run was only 72 Mpg...which was horribly lower than I expected. We have been through a couple of trials... The last time, the CBF125 (EFI) went off the reservation and was pouring gas in at 10:1. We are bolting in the Ninja 250 this week, and expect it to run much more reasonably (Hyperrocket @160mpg?). As we are so aerodynamic (about .089), and lightweight (About 355 Lbs), we should be able to get the numbers right on up to something respectable pretty quick.

The Geek topped out at about 69 Mph the last run...and averaged 60 mph for 107 miles, I think... 69 was interesting, but 60 is really fun. It is really nimble now that we have got the front geometry settled down (Runs close to neutral). It was "Interesting", trying to hold it when we first started road work with too much toe!!

I'm 6'4" and 210lbs, and it's really comfortable for me inside. I don't want to ramble... It has a Facebook Page (Alien Vehicles) that you can checkout (And like/follow, please?) to see what we are doing day to day! :-)

That's finished product that Elio had to pare down to so they could meet that 7,200 buck target price

Hahahahaha!!! Elio...sucks. Paul Elio...sucks harder. Considering our first measured run was 72 mpg, we are well past his capability....and that was always the idea :-)

I will eventually get to a "Door slammer", but have a few models to build before that (Since I don't plan to cut a car in half and put a Geo engine in it,,,or wait till the 325 million hits my mailbox :-)

The Geek was purpose built to break records, mpg and distance. The goal for later this year is to drive coast to coast on about 15 gallons of gas.

The heavier duty model we are working on now (Vortex) will still run over 100mpg, city or highway!

(No frills Elio...tough crowd!):eek:

Nice work! :thumbup:

There is much potential there.

Thank you, Frank!

:eek:

I want one!

True. But if you find a young designer that knows Solidworks and ask them to design a few stick-on bits to plug the gaps and use a two-tone colour scheme I think it will come up much better.

Of course, to old timers such as myself, it could be interpreted futuristic :thumbup: even though it's not. Hey, if it works, that's what counts.

Happy Friday everyone!

Stubby79- Would love to have you as the first owner!!

Old Tele man- You pegged it, design completely based on Salt Flats belly tank racers..

ar5boosted- Totally agree on artwork color scheme on the next one...This one will be covered in sponsor/supporter logos pretty soon. (And as a fellow old timer, I totally agree on perceptions being real enough!)

Here are some more pics.. Will start a build/work thread soon if okay...

Have a great weekend,

Ray

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...5&d=1499437483

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...6&d=1499437483

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...7&d=1499437483

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...8&d=1499437483

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...9&d=1499437483

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...0&d=1499437483

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1499437597

It looks like a nice effort. What sanctioning body's record are you going for?

Where does the 0.089 Cd figure come from?

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...6&d=1499437483

This is the most informative. After the first pictures I thought you'd cut a full teardrop canopy in half. Do you think it would be possible to put sprockets on the top of the kingpins and run a chain inside the upper A-arm?

Hey Freebeard! Thank you... Well, I'm not real smart when it comes to the sanctioning body stuff...planning on going for Guinness, and then just publishing our work with witnesses on our pr stuff...

On CDa, I'm not the Aero geek in the project, but the two guys that are did the math by hand...calculating square frontal area with laminar flow. Their numbers were actually (.087-.089) at 60 mph. They say it gets better past 100...but I don't think I'll be trying THAT this week!

Totally lost me on sprockets on the kingpins and chains in the A Arms???

Small-f freebeard, I'm not that important.

What's the current Guiness record? I really don't follow them.

Generally, with sanctioning bodies, the rules determine what can and can be done. Of course, the most unbounded would be your inspiration — Bonneville. You could look into whether you can pass scrutineering there.

You might review the materials at http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...html#post87799. I don't car to dig through it myself, but generally a free body in ground effect can have a Cd of 0.05-0.09. See also http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...tml#post289064

Once you add fully spatted wheels (three or four) it's hard to reach 0.12. When you figure in the open front A-arms it goes north of that. You might send a Personal Message to aerohead and invite his comment. I think he would like to see it.

That other thought was unpremeditated. If the top of the kingpin passed through the upper Heim joint or whatever to a sprocket, then a chain running in the hollow upper A-arm would allow eliminating the drag from the steering arms and the drag link/idler arms (or whtvr). Those small round tubes probably have as much drag as the A-arms which are thicker but have a better fineness ratio.

Where'd you get the canopy?

Kudos on such a good looking and working build! I think the wheels, the front arms connecting them to the body, and their lackof fairings mean the Cd your people calculated is probably optimistic. Looking for fairings for those wheels and arms is definitely one of the key places to improve that disappointing 69mpg you just recorded. Right now those tires and wspoked wheels are giant spinning mess-fans mucking up your aerobody's pretty nice shape.

Where did you get the lighting on the front of the exterior, I am liking that setup!

That's an interesting project. I have already considered to attempt something similar and try to register it as a road-legal vehicle.

I'm not that familiar with the 250 Ninja. Is that EFI or carbureted? MPG in the 70's might be due in part to enrichment. I think one of the later Megasquirt incarnations or something similar should be up to spark and fuel and would allow you to monitor what is going on with the engine. Gearing is another factor. What is the RPM at your targeted cruise speed?

Thanks for posting, Ray. Kudos on going lightweight. I don't go to Facebook for anything, since they pretty much destroyed the functioning listservs without replacing their usefulness. As far as I can tell, nothing I posted there was ever seen, probably because I had not done whatever it takes to target my ads.
With the rear engine, I think you will have problems with crosswind stability, and they will get far worse if you add fairings to the front wheels. Those are currently adding about 50% to the drag. Beware of the fairings being unstable themselves, as the most obvious shape puts the CP ahead of the kingpin axis. If you have to, you can just offset the kingpins and spindles to get trail for both steering and aero instead of using a caster angle. It works fine.
You really need to do a coast-down test, and find out what your power requirements are. Timing several points lets you separate out rolling and aero drag. It would also be nice to get the weight distribution and CG height, which can be calculated by weighing the front and rear with each end lifted in turn.
There is a great account of the test results on a WWII fighter aircraft, from the original shape to one with cooling vents, guns, and other little details. The drag doubled. The devil is in the details, covering all spokes and managing the flow in shear between moving and stationary parts, minimizing or fully sealing openings, gently ducting and closely regulating the cooling air, etc. Laminar flow is very seldom present on road vehicles, as the slightest blemish or irregularity trips it to regular turbulent flow, spreading out at 30 deg from there back. The back wheel looks nice, but expensive on fuel.
The windshield/roof will bake you on a sunny day, and the angle somewhat impairs vision, especially if there are any manufacturing defects. It will need a defroster, being hard to reach, and an outside wiper that won't scratch it with road grit.
If you are using 17" wheels, you might be able to pry loose a set of Michelin solar race car tires, which would probably halve your rolling drag. Maybe we should set up some sort of petition or PR campaign to make those generally available.

Do you have pictures or additional hand-waving to explicate this?

Looks awesome. I liked seeing LEDs on the fore edges of the A-arms, gives such a small vehicle a lot more visibility at night. Good.

I also had thought to mention filling in the A-arm triangles to cut their drag: oops! Already done. Super cool. When you're trying to push a 300-lb ride with a 200-lb rider at 60+ and you're using just 125cc, you fill in the triangles!

I wonder if adding discs to either/both sides of the front wheels, and to the rear wheel, would quiet it down/add speed/increase fuel economy? Normally it's played down a bit since it's not a big contribution on something as massive and aerodynamically noisy as a car, but you're already below .10 cD. I think smoothing the wheels would make a pretty darned big difference if you're that low already and still running bare spokes.

Again: beautiful. Keen to see where you go next with your efforts.

Offset for Trail without Caster Angle
 

In the side view, the kingpin axis is vertical, and the spindle is offset to the rear by the amount of trail desired.


In the picture the top left feature is the spindle hole, above the steering rod. The ball joints are in the middle, and a rim brake is mounted on the right. There were no apparent complications. Mike Burrows has also used it on a bicycle with no problem.
The use of caster angle instead is a holdover from the earliest cars, which did better with the camber angle this produces in a sharp turn. You can see this taken to extremes now in road graders. It also reduces bearing loads a bit, but now it is somewhat a liability, trying to keep a wide tire upright.

It's hard to see the picture and the description at the same time, but I think I get it.

Direction of travel is to the right?
Ball joints are not plumb?

Yes, travel is to the right. The picture is from a slight angle toward the front, so a bit of the front-view offset on the ball joint shows up, along with a not-level frame, but the ball joints are plumb, AFAIK.

Ecomodder Feature...humbling, thank you!
 

Hey Guys! Just wanted to take a minute to say THANKS for your thoughts and input... I was a little nervous about going public after 7 years of hiding...and you all are making me feel so at home... Couldn't believe it today when I checked my email and saw that our little buggy was featured...

Clearly stated, I think (I know) that you guys are the cutting edge, and deeply respect and admire the experience and efforts of the folks who sit around this amazing table. I actually feel a little stupid for not having the nuggies to put it out there earlier for your awesome advice!

Know that I am listening closely and humbly, while trying to get ready to prepare and sell the kit versions very soon. Ecomodder...rocks! :thumbup:

Honored and Proud.

Ray

Hey freebeard!

To my knowledge, Volkswagen holds the record for production at about 260 Mpg. Craig Vetter's group, The Craig Vetter Fuel Economy Challenge (craigvetter.com) is the real point of the spear with gas, diesel and electric streamliners and such in my opinion (They were doing 400 Mpg in the 70's!).

Currently, and oddly, some of the older Guinness record's have been removed for economy. An example is/was "The California Commuter", at 155 Mpg, in 1980...

There is also a guy named Vic, who frequent's Craig's stuff and ninjette.org, he just broke 260 Mpg on a simply faired Ninja 250...and that is serious!

Oh Bonneville...sigh. Got to walk on it last year...terribly humbling. We are working on a long tail version to get out there and play with the big boys by maybe 2020...but you are right, they don't play about scrutinizing for safety. We'll see. (Oddly, you wouldn't believe how often folks ask about this!)

Gonna take a look at your links and am very grateful for the sharing.

On the spats, we are working on downforce and geometry right now, and can't put the pants on till we are very firm at high speed. They act like rudders...and we only weigh 350lbs.

Todd's Canopies made this one and a few other prototypes for us...he was AMAZING!! Todd unfortunately passed and his family closed the business last year. We are beginning dev work on our own canopies in two days (Cross fingers) There are other folks that I will happily share if you would like.. LPAERO.com is the big boy from what I have seen...

Thanks so much California98Civic...kind words. The guys calculated CDa on the body alone, I think..RR and wheel drag has not been calculated yet. Essentially, the body is in flight at 7" ground clearance...with very little ground effect, mostly to counteract lateral gusts...and that part works well, in spite of screwing with roll center and CG. We are putting pants on later, after we get a little further on downforce with minimum drag. The A Arms are actually covered and profiled in the rear to a neutral wing.. I will tell you, after over-correcting for 7 years and repeated lessons/failures, I'm going real slow on change/add...baby steps. We do the highway testing near the ocean, and the headwinds can easily gust to 30kts...which is 100 actual at 70 mph :-) Thanks again...

Hey ECO-AKJ, after getting cheated on Ebay a few times on quality, we now get everything from Superbrightleds.com. They sell all kind of strip lights and other stuff. The headlights a High output from them as well (With heat sinks :-) I think we are about 5 amps draw for all body lights now.

Thanks for the compliment! One of the team engineers, Ned Ryan Doyle, calls it "The Black Bolt"...he is a very cool guy :-)

Hey joemac, the 250 is a revver, most of the power above 10k..but it has good midrange if you tinker with it.. The motor we just took off was a Honda CBF125, and it is a closed EFI system (We couldn't hack it). Dead on with enrichment, that dang injector was dumping fuel in at 10:1 at 60 mph+, which killed us. We have an Ecotron's (Similar to MS, but not as good)unit that we have played with a bit her, but it has been a pain on mapping. So I am taking a break and running good ole carb's for a bit (Dual Mikuni 30's with 38 and 86 jets) to get some serious numbers on the table (Goal 230+ with carb's). As we are trying to get the new engine settled in, we are also installing a ton of telemetry and monitoring stuff, and I will share with you guys as we get it working. I have found the the best money spent thus far was a standalone wideband AFR meter. It tells you as soon as the map get's off the reservation...and pairs with the pyrometer to let you see the effect of the decreased quenching of lean state (Staying under 1100F).

Here's my own design for a belly tanker (it's not quite as far along as yours :))

http://ecomodder.com/forum/member-fr...belly-tank.png

The fourth wheel is to qualify as a four-wheel vehicle and could be deleted. The third wheel is semi-enclosed. The front wheels are hubless or wire wheels with flat carbon-fiber spokes.

The body is formless construction, from flat sheets, using pie-cuts along very strategically located lines (along the triangular, diamond or hex outlines).

The shape has octahedral symmetry and approximates an asymmetrical prolate spheroid to more accuracy than your cutting tools.

Gosh, Bob Stuart! (Hey Bob):p

I noticed the picture above your shoulder and looked closer to see that it is the X-4!!! Simply, you are the man. Your work on this was/is a game changer of quantum scale. I used your engineering thoughts so many times on the versions that I have been through. Don't know if you remember or are aware of the 3VG that Mother Earth News did back in the earlier 80's, but it and the X-4 have been the only two real points of reference I have used in my clean sheet of paper approach. Your understanding of physics as they relate to motion is unmatched...my hat is off :-) Do you know Craig Vetter? How about Ned Ryan Doyle? They both would like you :-)

Thanks for noticing the weight... Like the X-4, it was a huge obstacle, and at 350, I am not willing to take it any further for safety on the highway (First version Geek was over 500..and it took 6 years and 200k to get it to 3ish safely.)

(If you would like help on FB or anything, just PM me, and I will help you in any way I can.) (Listserv, hehehe..I hear you!)

On Cg and stability at speed, it' rides pretty well up to 70..when the slotted-center tires sling out to a 1/4" contact patch or so. I run her high, like you did, to counteract the crosswinds, and have had 30-40 mph cross and HW's at 65 plus thus far with reasonable control (40 mph hw at 70 lifted the nose 12" once early on..and I didn't poop for days after). We were running about 33% on each wheel with the 125, but I recon that the 250 is going to shift Cg a few inches aft. You are dead on with the wheel pants, too...they are like vertical wings with about 15lbs of force at 60, against a total 1/2" of tire patch combined. We are running bout 1 deg down on the front a-arms, for about 10-15 lbs downforce...and may increase it or add a spoiler to allow for wheel pants soon. I figured that we should be able to pop 150 or so first, then start with more DF until mpg falls off...and tweak.

One of the crazy things that you might dig is the relative effect that I found on aerodynamics (and maybe Darin did, too)... Being so clean on the body (Releasing at around 75% of tail zero), I can feel the pressure wave from passing cars...the sucking and "push"(Not normal buffeting). Dump truck and log-carrying 18 wheelers are holy hell...creating such a vortex/pressure wave that it will actually lift the body off the ground...like skipping on water. Not fun at all, and convinced me to add much weight to the front on retail versions.

before I went to dual a arms, I did a lot of research around your cantilever inboard design...eventually settling for the simplified versions, but I did test and see how amazing it is to bring the pivot axis substantially inboard!!

Gosh...again with caster and CP, you are a God... We are running about 4 deg pos right now, and everything we change is relative to "at speed" as you advised...using pressure to dictate angle...cause it changes like the dickens at aero levels. We can go as far as 7 pos, I think, but am waiting to settle her down a little before changing (Had 1 deg neg camber on both sides last run for centering test, going to -1 on right only next run, and zero toe.

I am hoping to get some serious mpg numbers in during the coming weeks...and then shut down for a bit to relocate to a bigger shop. After these two are done, I am going to focus on the fun stuff like you mentioned, roll resistance, lift, etc. We bought a Innovate LMA-3 and data recorder, and will be enjoying the benefits of the accelerometer then :-)

The back wheel was just set up for example, we are putting another spoker back there next week (With aero discs at some point). That Ninja wheel was heavy as the dickens!! (About 40 lbs!)

On canopy... our mad scientist team member, Kenneth, calls the clear canopy "The brain cooker"..and it does. We are working on a roof now, similar to the old gtp stuff...and the Oldsmobile aerotech. We will be piping exhaust heat for defrost in the new dash...and will probably do some work on the windshield angle soon. I really want to get to glass on the front, but you know how costly that is...we'll get there. Probably just raising the angle for now.. Wipers...ugh...and other joy. The plastic windshield does a pretty good job in mild rain, but I have found that turbulence/tight flow is an asset here (Initial "nose"pressure wave/dispersion is decreasing flow adhesion to the glass, lifting the air about 1/2", and not creating turbulence (Low pressure)...might put in a spoiler or experiment with pressurized air here..

We are running 18" all around, 3" front and 1.75 rear", Built by Buchanan's in Ca, and installed on 20mm hubs. We run WF920's 3" all around for the weight and RR for now.

Yes, it is a shame that the eco competition tires are not more readily available, or the VW XL1 tires, or the new BMW I3 tires, at reasonable prices. I am reading that EU is forging ahead with large diameter low resistance tires, but they are talking about not letting them out on the market till 2021! I have been doing a lot of reading on the skinny spares (17-18"), and may well look at using them on test stuff...delamination is my only concern, and only at significant velocity..

I would certainly step up to any effort that increases availability of above-par resources to this arena..and will make this a part of my public speak in the meanwhile..

Thank you so much for your fascinating thoughts, know that I will re-read and soak the message further.:thumbup:

Honored,

Ray

Hey elhigh,
love the McCormic! (I used to have a tricycle, and put a chevy 6 cyl. in it!)

Glad you get/like the lights...it is a butt load of lumens combined. The top side lights on the a arms blink as turn signals...and I love to sit and watch it.

Filling a arms...yep. They make a nice blend of downforce, too. I was killing that 125 with my big butt, pushing max rpms (8-9 k) and 650 degrees on exhaust gas temp. The 250 will be so much nicer..and quieter (I solid mounted the engine to the frame for strength on the 125...and it was like 140 db inside!)

Disc's- heck yes...after fighting the initial prototype pants, barely able to hold it with passing cars or cross winds, I pulled them..and will start back with single-sided disc's on the outside as we work our way back to best-case.

Thank you so much for the compliment and constructive support, McCormic, you cannot know how nice it is to feel the fellowship of colleagues with this thing... Please keep the thoughts/suggestions coming...team's, build. :thumbup:

Ray

VERY COOL FREEBEARD!!!

That was a very hard lesson for me to learn...increasing frontal mass to decrease drag...thought it was so backwards for years..

Reminds me so much of Buckminster Fuller's work!!! (Dymaxion and such). Hubless and carbon spokes, You have bigger testicles than me (And a bigger brain)

Have a great week :-)

Craig Vetter :)
Index to the making of the Last Vetter Fairing

Thanks, Ray. I hadn't gotten any feedback on the X-4 for years, despite this re-cap last year: The Flexible Flyer: How composites made velomobile history : CompositesWorld Re-posting that on BentRider got me one request for plans for a stitch 'n' glue velomobile chassis. I'm getting a round tuit, I hope, and thinking of one with a Honda Cub engine for me. It is an hour to the nearest traffic light from here.

I didn't meet Craig Vetter or Ned Ryan Doyle, but I got Craig's movie. I read almost everything, including the 3VG story. Would you like a rather select library? We old fogies need to pass the torch. How about a 500 cc flat four from an aircraft APU? (Not recommended for max economy.)

I'm surprised at your extreme truck wake problems, but I seldom got to 50 MPH downhill on the X-4. Having seen various blowovers, though, I am convinced that any fast, lightweight vehicle should be stable as a glider if used as a stunt gap-jumper, and able to cross a section of wet glare ice in a crosswind with only sideways displacement, no yaw. I suspect you are suffering from a cp too far forward of the cg, amplifying all disturbances. That was the Achille's heel of the Tatras, and the wonderful Pillbug. Vetter's problems mostly went away with nose ballast, so I now draw front engines when I doodle. Why not stick a big, cheap, hackable tail fin on it, Bonneville style, and see how it runs?

If you want to run zero toe, the trick seems to be to make sure that braking forces give toe in, not toe out. My most thrilling test was the one with accidental toe out. :-) You should be able to hack the LMA-3 to get great coast-down data - I'm looking forward to that.

Has anyone actually investigated glass-bending at home? The stuff goes plastic at surprisingly low temperatures if you have time, and we do. If you start with a compound curve, you can slump it into another compound curve far easier than starting from flat. If you are heating a space anyway, it is really cheap to build an oven using drywall or concrete/fiberglass panels with metal corners and maybe some fiberglass insulation. You can use any kind of junk stove elements, etc. The key is to include a vigorous fan or blower, assembled with its motor outside to stay cool.

One easy tip: The roof over my child seat is just painted on. One clear sheet with square corners forms that section of the body, and the side windows were masked to that shape.

One radical tip: Why do cars use downforce? Why not use big rudders over the CG to make them turn, stay up, etc?

One engine tip: Why do we use throttle plates? Why not use an electric supercharger and run it as a generator?

California Commuter link
 

Another post mentioned the California Commuter. The builder Doug Malewicki has a website:
The California Commuter - World Record Holding 155 MPG Freeway Legal Car!

It's off-topic, but since you like that, here a motorhome that uses the same geometry:

http://ecomodder.com/forum/member-fr...07-7-35-02.png

If you find the four-way intersections at the nose top and side you can see the underlying octahedron. Each hexagon requires one narrow pie-cut. If it's metal: butt-weld, then on to the English wheel.

Also, since you mention Bucky Fuller (and crosswind gusts), here's an early version of his Omnidirectional Transport:

http://ecomodder.com/forum/member-fr...f5307910-o.jpg

I like your project and wish you success with it.

You might look at the Graves Motorsport Flash Tune ECU kit that lets you change the map in the stock 300 Ninja ECU, I'm not sure if they've got one for the EFI-equipped 250s. I think this is what a friend who is building up a 300 Ninja road racer decided to use. About $425 or so and it may be easier to get working than starting with the Ecotrons/MegaSquirt stuff.

Have you considered that your wire wheels will see a lot more side load than they would on a motorcycle? Sidecar outfits have that issue too, the spokes have to be stiffer/stronger to resist the side loads. Perhaps you are using wider than usual hubs to get a broader base at the spoke flange?

I look forward to reading about your continued progress.

cheers,
Michael