Is technology getting less reliable or is it just me?

[JSH]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

Too bad not everyone is like you (and me. I wouldn't go that far either without an ATF change).

I've talked to folks that buy a new car every 3 to 5 years that say they'd never even think of changing the ATF, regardless of what the manual says, nor do they ever go by the shorter oil change schedules regardless of how they drive. After all, by the time they sell the car it's not very likely to be a problem for them.

This is why brands that do a lot of leases have started rolling service into the lease price. People think the service is "free" so they actually go and get it done. Then when they return the car the company sells it as a certified preowned car with full service records at a premium.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

But getting back on track with the observation, how much investigation is enough? Of course investing nearly $20,000 or more into something means you'll want it to last a long time. But Ford says 150,000 miles, unless other circumstances, then it should be 30,000 miles. Well, now we need to do some detective work to see if 1) how often it was actually changed and 2) if it wasn't every 30,000 miles, is there proof the car was driven only on flat highways? And that's just one part of the whole car.

The time to do that was before buying the car. Now your friends need to make sure the extended warranty they likely paid thousands for actually pays for the new transmission.

I'm not one to ever buy extended warranties - that money is much better saved in a general emergency fund instead of spending 20 - 30% of the cost of a likely repair on a warranty. The only time they make sense in the short run is if the item is essential and the person absolutely can't pay out of pocket for the repair. Warranties are insurance and like insurance they are paying for large losses that can't be covered out of pocket.

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by JSH

This is why brands that do a lot of leases have started rolling service into the lease price. People think the service is "free" so they actually go and get it done. Then when they return the car the company sells it as a certified preowned car with full service records at a premium.

Let's hope car prices go back down some day soon. Like I've said before, there are countries who have been in this type of economic situation with used car prices for decades. (In Mexico every car that was 200,000 pesos new was 200,000 pesos 5 years used regardless of where I looked, private or through a dealer. The same with 300,000 pesos, 400,000 pesos, etc. And this was long before COVID.) In the USA we've been spoiled with being able to purchase used cars that are only a few years old for a fraction of the price of a new one. Everyone keeps saying "in a year things will go back to normal" but I'll believe it when I see it.

I just tried searching for "certified preowned" vehicles on Autotrader within a 200 mile radius.

The first two cheapest results are a 2014 Ford Focus ($9,991) and a 2018 Ford Fiesta ($14,000) but with a 90 day, 4,000 mile warranty.

Then there's a 2016 Nissan Leaf for $14,000 with a 6 month, 6,000 mile warranty.

After a few more similar Fords there's a 2018 Hyndai Accent SE for $16,189, but since it had a 100,000 mile / 10 year warranty to begine with and it only has 29,550 miles on it it has 70,000 miles to go or until 2028, whichever comes first. But from what I can find, that price is about the same, if not more than the original MSRP

How long is a typical certified preowned warranty?

[redpoint5]

Buying from the stealership isn't the way to find a bargain on a vehicle. Private party is how you do that. You can buy 3rd party warranties too, but again, warranties aren't how to save money.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

Let's hope car prices go back down some day soon. Like I've said before, there are countries who have been in this type of economic situation with used car prices for decades. (In Mexico every car that was 200,000 pesos new was 200,000 pesos 5 years used regardless of where I looked, private or through a dealer. The same with 300,000 pesos, 400,000 pesos, etc. And this was long before COVID.) In the USA we've been spoiled with being able to purchase used cars that are only a few years old for a fraction of the price of a new one. Everyone keeps saying "in a year things will go back to normal" but I'll believe it when I see it.

I just tried searching for "certified preowned" vehicles on Autotrader within a 200 mile radius.

The first two cheapest results are a 2014 Ford Focus ($9,991) and a 2018 Ford Fiesta ($14,000) but with a 90 day, 4,000 mile warranty.

Then there's a 2016 Nissan Leaf for $14,000 with a 6 month, 6,000 mile warranty.

After a few more similar Fords there's a 2018 Hyndai Accent SE for $16,189, but since it had a 100,000 mile / 10 year warranty to begine with and it only has 29,550 miles on it it has 70,000 miles to go or until 2028, whichever comes first. But from what I can find, that price is about the same, if not more than the original MSRP

How long is a typical certified preowned warranty?

Wholesale used car prices are rapidly falling - down almost 15% in December year-over-year and that was the 6th straight month of falling prices.

Certified pre-owned warranties vary from brand to brand. In general they aren't worth much because they only cover the first 100K miles or so of a vehicle's life - a period when very few modern vehicles have any major issues.
Generally they are about a year extra bumper to bumper and 2 years for powertrain.

I remember messing with the salesman when we bought our first Prius. I was choosing between almost identical cars - one at the Toyota Dealer and one at an independent dealer that only sold cars that were less than 5 years old. The Toyota salesman was giving me the hard press about how reliable Toyota cars were and how this Prius would go hundreds of thousands of miles without issues. I said great - what is your price because the dealership down the road 3 miles has the same car for $20K. The salesman said they weren't comparable cars because his was certified pre-owned with an extended warranty. To which I replied, "You JUST said this car would go hundreds of thousands of miles without any problems do to Toyota's legendary reliability - why would I pay $2K extra for a car with a warranty I will never use"? He had no reply - just that it was already certified and I had to pay for the warranty if I wanted the car.

I ended up buying from the independent and the car went another 10 years / 125K miles without any major issues. I did the maintenance, replaced tires, the lead-acid starting battery and that was it besides the 3-way valve that cost me less than $100 and 2 hours to fix. I sold it not because of any issues - just because I wanted to try and EV and Chevy was leasing the Spark EV for $99 a month and I had free charging at work.

[redpoint5]

I always joke that nobody needs to certify that a car was pre-owned, I just believe it when they tell me it's used.

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

Buying from the stealership isn't the way to find a bargain on a vehicle. Private party is how you do that. You can buy 3rd party warranties too, but again, warranties aren't how to save money.

When I decided to look for a Toyota hybrid for my next vehicle I searched everywhere, both private and "stealerships." I ended up finding what I wanted in a dealership in Texas. Here I couldn't get a Prius from the same year with the same amount of miles for less than what I paid for the Avalon even from a private seller.

On the Avalon I did do a CarFax and also had the car inspected by an independent mechanic since I didn't want to drive 20 hours to look at it myself and then drive 20 hours back because I didn't like the car. The mechanic sent me pics of a couple dings (not even noticeable in person) I used to negotiate the price. I asked for $1,000 less and they said "sure" so fast I started to think something might be wrong with the car. I guess the infotainment center dying later would be that thing that was wrong with the car, but other than that it works pretty well still 4 years and 75,000 miles later.

I refused the extended warranty they were selling. I had also already gotten a preaprooved loan through my own bank locked into 4% APR.

[redpoint5]

The thing with stealerships is that their only motivation is to extract as much money from the buyer as possible. As a private seller, my motivation is to clear space in my garage. I know the history of the vehicle while I owned it. Ask me a question and I've got the answer. Ask a stealer a question, and they refer to a document that has words absolving them of liability.

I bought a car at a stealership too. It's the newest vehicle I own (2006). The salesman was an absolute scoundrel. Did the whole 4-square nonsense with me. Tried to extract an extra $100 from me at the last minute saying "it's only a hundred bucks, why let the deal fall through for only a hundred bucks", to which I replied "exactly".

They're loathsome scoundrels. Not all of them, just most, and most prominently.

Regular folk haven't practiced deception to an exact science like the stealership has. Querying them quickly reveals if they are being honest, or haven't practiced lying enough to be good at it.

[Isaac Zachary]

I agree to a certain extent. I wouldn't put it past private sellers to lie through their teeth though. Some people are very good at lying already. Private sellers don't have a reputation to keep either. Not that dealerships are great about trying to maintain a good reputation, but some do try more than others.

Maybe it's not the technology that's unreliable but the system for buying it.

Is there a "how to buy a car" thread? We could use two, one for used cars (not just ones for $1,500 or less) and one for new cars. After all, that might be the best way to save money right there.

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Technology is not a problem, at all. Dumbproofing it enough is the real issue. Sure a manual transmission might be easier for a shade-tree mechanic to deal with, while a properly mantained automatic could eventually reach a lower total cost of ownership under certain circumstances. When it comes to engines, just take a look at how some vehicles in Mexico are available only with the simplest naturally-aspirated engine possible, even when versions available elsewhere are either fitted with turbocharged engines or retain the naturally-aspirated ones just for some very specific export markets.