Thoughts about my move to New Zealand

[Ecky]

A nation (or state) doesn't exist just because a person says it does. Or, perhaps I mean to say, it only exists because collectively everyone says and believes it does. Nations and states are not a product of natural forces. Even with an external pressure unifying people, it's probably still necessary to tell them again and again they are part of a unified group. Who was it who wrote about that? Locke?

The Marxists are just as much a product as gun violence. We don't need to ban their Marxism, but rather to solve the underlying problem motivating it. It appears to me that many of America's institutions are fraying.

Consider - for better or for worse, once New Zealand made available Covid vaccinations, the uptake was an almost immediate 90+%, and has reached around 96%. Regardless of what you or I individually think about vaccines, it is indicative of belief and trust in the institutions.

Some problems can be rather cyclical. Take for example, in the far north, there are many indigenous communities living in relative poverty. Sometime around 20-30 years ago, drug runners started getting narcotics into the country with that area as the entry point. The communities were vulnerable, and drug use became widespread. The downstream effect is that many children from that area and time have grown up without one or both of their parents, and/or have mental or physical issues, leading them to be one of the single largest factors in an uptick in crime. There were many interventions that could have been effective, and most of which the US population would have been largely opposed to, because there is in large part a culture that a person's circumstances are almost entirely of their own making.

I don't think individualism (or gun ownership) is necessarily incompatible with social cohesion, but it makes for a vicious cycle when the circumstances of some members of that community get bad enough that they turn to crime and violence.

~

One key difference, I think, can be illustrated by an example: If a typical American knew their neighbor were struggling, they would be highly unlikely to give money or help to their neighbor, even if they knew that, in practical terms, it would make their own children and family safer. Why give to someone who had the moral failing of not working or providing for his or herself?

Here, culturally, you're much more likely to see the average person or family say, "It doesn't matter why they're struggling, why haven't we helped them sooner?" A member of the community who is struggling is not seen as having failed, but rather as having been failed at some point in the past.

[freebeard]

Nations and states are not a product of natural forces...The Marxists are just as much a product as gun violence.

Maybe I'm putting two different assertions together. Frankfort School Marxism is a product of the long march through the institutions. Gun violence is a product of fatherless homes.

Some problems can be rather cyclical. Take for example, in the far north, there are many indigenous communities living in relative poverty.

Here the indigenous people have a high trust society, it's hyphenated-Americans that perpetuate the cycle.

[Ecky]

Originally Posted by freebeard

Maybe I'm putting two different assertions together. Frankfort School Marxism is a product of the long march through the institutions. Gun violence is a product of fatherless homes.



Here the indigenous people have a high trust society, it's hyphenated-Americans that perpetuate the cycle.

I was under the impression many Native Americans did not highly trust (for example) the US federal government to be looking out for their best interests, along with other North American institutions. Admittedly, I did not grow up with any direct exposure to NA culture or opinions, as I was born and raised in an area that had largely been vacated during the Trail of Tears.

Regarding Marxism, I may also be naive, but I'm under the impression people don't join en masse if they're content with the status quo. That contentment may not have a direct relationship to living conditions.

[freebeard]

I was under the impression many Native Americans did not highly trust (for example) the US federal government to be looking out for their best interests, along with other North American institutions.

Like everything interesting, it's complicated. The native Indians sided with and against the French, British and Americans. I understand they think in terms of seven generations (not the next quarter).

Originally Posted by DDG

https://www.nrdc.org › bio › jennifer-sass › scientific-evidence-support-seven-generations-future-thinking-our-toxic-chemical
Scientific Evidence to Support 'Seven Generations' future ... - NRDC
Native American tribes hold dear the concept of seven generations planning, that the impact of decisions should be considered out seven generations into the future, about 150 years. The...

That would make me indigenous.

That contentment may not have a direct relationship to living conditions.

Get 'em while their minds are young and pliable and you can revert them to 1100CE, pre-Magna Carta thinking. Habeas Corpus and all that.

edit:
Insofar as the Federal government; they've lost all trust worldwide. That could turn around as fast in 2024 as it did in 2020.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by Ecky

Regardless of what you or I individually think about vaccines, it is indicative of belief and trust in the institutions.

Trade-offs. Regardless of what you think about Nazis, it was indicative of belief and trust in the institutions.

*Not a commentary on vaccines. I've had them all.

There were many interventions that could have been effective, and most of which the US population would have been largely opposed to, because there is in large part a culture that a person's circumstances are almost entirely of their own making.

You're preaching to a determinist. I believe in cause > effect. We're free to choose that which must occur (I've not yet solved paradox, so this is a stand-in wrong theory).

The thing is, our assumption that people are responsible for their actions IS functional and a requirement for orderly society. Even if people have no agency, nothing works unless we pretend they have it. If we accept all behavior because we're "born this way", then society collapses instantly. Somehow, destiny is not a sufficient excuse for doing wrong. Nobody accepts "I couldn't help myself", even if it's the truth.

I don't think individualism (or gun ownership) is necessarily incompatible with social cohesion, but it makes for a vicious cycle when the circumstances of some members of that community get bad enough that they turn to crime and violence.

Some believe it's more useful to make tools less accessible despite a continuous progression towards tool effectiveness and availability. They advocate for impotent men. Gun control is a lost cause. 3D printing has rendered the instinct to regulate tool availability meaningless. How much more freighting is the (near) future where basement dwellers can manipulate genetic code on a whim?

We don't need good tools, we need good people. Actually, good people is non-optional.

One key difference, I think, can be illustrated by an example: If a typical American knew their neighbor were struggling, they would be highly unlikely to give money or help to their neighbor, even if they knew that, in practical terms, it would make their own children and family safer.

I grew up in rural Oregon, not southern California, so my experience doesn't agree with your assertion. My experience is that the more densely populated an area is, the less people take responsibility, because look at all those others who might be more highly qualified to give a damn. They might even have a certificate or other paper that gives them permission to do good.

Why give to someone who had the moral failing of not working or providing for his or herself?

Exactly. You'll find that when more is required of folks, they will do it. The bottom is defined by how far down society allows a person to continue breathing. That's not a boundary I'm interested in exploring.

Here, culturally, you're much more likely to see the average person or family say, "It doesn't matter why they're struggling,

That's a dumb culture then, and it has a shorter "best by" date than others. Being uninterested in the cause of failure is the definition of failure.

Originally Posted by Ecky

I was under the impression many Native Americans did not highly trust (for example) the US federal government to be looking out for their best interests

The only folks that trust the largest institutions only do so because said institutions are incentivized to indoctrinate youth into believing big government is to be trusted.

As an aside, I'm native American, because I'm not native to anywhere else.

Regarding Marxism, I may also be naive, but I'm under the impression people don't join en masse if they're content with the status quo. That contentment may not have a direct relationship to living conditions.

Marxism has nothing to do with living conditions and everything to do with a juvenile lens of "us and them". We should pity everyone fooled into that downward looking frame of misery and destruction.

Originally Posted by freebeard

Here the indigenous people have a high trust society, it's hyphenated-Americans that perpetuate the cycle.

I don't disagree, but I find it more useful to regard people individually, and not as members of arbitrary groups. My expectation of folks mostly revolves around age and underlying mental capability, and nothing else.

[freebeard]

I find it more useful to regard people individually, and not as members of arbitrary groups. My expectation of folks mostly revolves around age and underlying mental capability, and nothing else.

My favorite example would be Thomas Sowell, for elder wisdom.

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

I find it more useful to regard people individually, and not as members of arbitrary groups. My expectation of folks mostly revolves around age and underlying mental capability, and nothing else.

Sounds like you disagree with that identitarian BS as much as I do. I grew up surrounded by folks of different ethnic/racial backgrounds way before all that so-called "diversity" BS which is basically anti-white racism got embraced by the mainstream media.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr

Sounds like you disagree with that identitarian BS as much as I do. I grew up surrounded by folks of different ethnic/racial backgrounds way before all that so-called "diversity" BS which is basically anti-white racism got embraced by the mainstream media.

I'm probably too autistic or otherwise socially inept to be susceptible to whatever the latest social fad is. Since I'm so awkward, I just approach people honestly and assume they'll do the same unless there's evidence to the contrary.

Diversity of skin pigmentation is uninteresting, but diversity of (well reasoned) thought is fascinating.

It's why I enjoy Ecky's posts, because even though there might be a bit of daylight between our philosophies, he shows his work and speaks honestly.

[Ecky]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

I'm probably too autistic or otherwise socially inept to be susceptible to whatever the latest social fad is. Since I'm so awkward, I just approach people honestly and assume they'll do the same unless there's evidence to the contrary.

Diversity of skin pigmentation is uninteresting, but diversity of (well reasoned) thought is fascinating.

It's why I enjoy Ecky's posts, because even though there might be a bit of daylight between our philosophies, he shows his work and speaks honestly.

I feel the same in return. I was telling my SO yesterday how much I appreciate disagreeing with you. I don't often enjoy disagreements.

[freebeard]

I'm probably too autistic or otherwise socially inept to be susceptible to whatever the latest social fad is.

There's a hidden variable. I'm not sure what it is.

Mostly they're predictable, but occasionally it's like the trainwreck metaphor -- you can see it coming and it grinds for a long time.

[citation needed] for what y'all disagree on.