Toyota's Unicorn

[Piotrsko]

Depending on vehicle, a hybrid could even make that grocery trip fully electric. Daughters car makes it to the airport and back on electrons only, unless you floor the go pedal which starts the engine.

[vteco]

Yes, you can easily use electricity (through electrolysis) to separate water into oxygen and hydrogen.

Yes, you can burn them together to release energy in an engine.

No, the amount of chemical energy you store from real world electrolysis, and then feed into internal combustion won't equal the amount of electrical energy you had to put in to start with.

You might as well just feed the electricity into an electric motor, and avoid the inevitable losses you get when jumping through hoops from one energy type to another for no apparent reason.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by vteco

You might as well just feed the electricity into an electric motor, and avoid the inevitable losses you get when jumping through hoops from one energy type to another for no apparent reason.

... or just derive hydrogen from natural gas, which is dirt cheap these days. That's where almost all hydrogen we use is derived.

[Logic]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

... or just derive hydrogen from natural gas, which is dirt cheap these days. That's where almost all hydrogen we use is derived.

Yes; mix fuel and water at high temperature and pressure in the presence of a catalyst to form Syngas, a mixture of Hydrogen and Carbon Monoxide.
(Carbon Monoxide also burns, to Carbon Dioxide, just not very energetically)

So what about an in vehicle reformer?
The higher the temperature; the less pressure and catalyst required. making onboard feasible.
MIT etc's Plasmatrons do this at standard pressures and with liquid fuel, using an electrical arc to provide the required (very high) temperature.

The arc itself can be considered a/the catalyst with a very large surface area of very exited electrons and ions etc.
(There's also a parallel to a std HHO electrolysis cell: An anode and cathode and said electron flow, but gas rather than water.
The gas rather than water is a good thing if you think about it.
Less half done reactions (H+ and OH-) going back to water, in water, rather than H and wasting heat in the process...)

ie: The industrial process can now be accomplished in a light small onboard reformer as high pressure and large catalyst surface area are no longer required thx to the arc.
NB that any un-reacted hydrocarbon gas will also burn, just better.
NB that Syngas is made with a water to hydrocarbon ratio of up to 90% water to 10% HC.

In a number of these Plasmatrons waste exhaust heat is used to pyrolyse fuel and produce steam, with the arc adding the extra required temperature and exited electron catalyst etc.
ie: Less input energy required.
(MIT wasn't alone: There were a good number of research institutes duplicating and verifying all this if you look!?)

I didn't watch the whole video as it looks like std clickbait to me.
But if Toyota is running a ICE on Hydrogen/Syngas; this is the most likely means by which they are accomplishing it.

Whoever bought out and shelved the MIT's Plasmatron will likely see to it that this is killed in the cradle.
So Toyota's trying to get into the news might be considered an attempt to get mechanical, technical types thinking and tinkering rather than sell a 'Water Car'.
Its little more than an oversized spark plug after all.
But what are the odds of that happening..!?
So 10 out of 10 to them for trying.


https://www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/15/3/1071

https://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehicle...n-ld-dec01.pdf

etc-etc.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by Logic

So what about an in vehicle reformer?
The higher the temperature; the less pressure and catalyst required. making onboard feasible.
MIT etc's Plasmatrons do this at standard pressures and with liquid fuel, using an electrical arc to provide the required (very high) temperature.

The arc itself can be considered a/the catalyst with a very large surface area of very exited electrons and ions etc.
(There's also a parallel to a std HHO electrolysis cell: An anode and cathode and said electron flow, but gas rather than water.
The gas rather than water is a good thing if you think about it.
Less half done reactions (H+ and OH-) going back to water, in water, rather than H and wasting heat in the process...)

ie: The industrial process can now be accomplished in a light small onboard reformer as high pressure and large catalyst surface area are no longer required thx to the arc.
NB that any un-reacted hydrocarbon gas will also burn, just better.
NB that Syngas is made with a water to hydrocarbon ratio of up to 90% water to 10% HC.

In a number of these Plasmatrons waste exhaust heat is used to pyrolyse fuel and produce steam, with the arc adding the extra required temperature and exited electron catalyst etc.
ie: Less input energy required.
(MIT wasn't alone: There were a good number of research institutes duplicating and verifying all this if you look!?)

We could do all of that, or just use existing engines meant to run on natural gas, like what China is doing.

Some people just like to do the simplest things as complicated as possible.

[vteco]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

... or just derive hydrogen from natural gas, which is dirt cheap these days. That's where almost all hydrogen we use is derived.

The topic was fuel from electroylsis of water, not chemical production of hydrogen from fossil fuels.

[freebeard]

A close reading of OP would have the topic as Toyota the author called the electrolyzer, electricity and the electrodes 'special'. So straight to the Unicorn Corral.

[Logic]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

We could do all of that, or just use existing engines meant to run on natural gas, like what China is doing.

Some people just like to do the simplest things as complicated as possible.

And the "up to 90% water, 10% fuel" bit?

Then there's the fact that one can find fuel and water at every gas station.
I don't know about there? But here very few if any of the petrol (gas) stations sell natural gas.
Those that do, don't sell it at 10% the cost of an equivalent liter of petrol!

[Logic]

Originally Posted by freebeard

Toyota hypes a car that runs on water. ....and electricity

TOYOTA CEO: THIS NEW ENGINE WILL END ELECTRIC CARS," SAYS TOYOTA CEO ABOUT HIS CREATION


Isn't that special?

Rather than burning hydrogen in an internal combustion engine, it employs an electrolyzer, a fuel cell and electric motor[s] in a open loop (like the old Stanley Steamer).

So the video says:
Water+electrolyser= HHO+fuel cell= electricity, to electric motors and electrolyser, right?

That doesn't make sense unless the electrolyser is well over unity, which is why I didn't watch the whole video.
It's just clickbait right? Or is there something worth seeing in there somewhere?

[freebeard]

The Unicorn Corral (8 Viewing)
Is it a myth or is it real? Reader skepticism is advised in these discussions of questionable modifications that have yet to pass the Carl Sagan test: "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

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