Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > Hybrids
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 10-07-2009, 01:37 AM   #1 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 568
Thanks: 1
Thanked 73 Times in 58 Posts
Ultracapacitor battery

Well, the EEstor ultracapacitor battery is due out this season, so presumably could come along any minute now. This is the one supposedly with great secrecy, from Cedar Park (Austin) Texas. Said to have many times the energy density of a lithium ion battery, recharge in just a few minutes, and to give the vehicle range of hundreds of miles. A real breakthrough.

So, anybody heard more about this?

Odds of the hype bearing fruit?

Thoughts?

  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 10-07-2009, 02:14 AM   #2 (permalink)
Pokémoderator
 
cfg83's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Southern California
Posts: 5,864

1999 Saturn SW2 - '99 Saturn SW2 Wagon
Team Saturn
90 day: 40.49 mpg (US)
Thanks: 439
Thanked 530 Times in 356 Posts
Otto -

I've heard of them. Just googled and found they have a relationship with Zenn electric vehicles :

EEStor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Quote:
Skepticism
EEStor's claims for the EESU exceed the energy storage capacity of any capacitor currently sold, by orders of magnitude. Many in the industry have expressed great skepticism regarding the claims. Jim Miller, a capacitor expert who visited EEStor to evaluate the technology for potential investors, stated he was very skeptical because of current leakage typically seen at high voltages and because there should be microfractures from temperature changes. He stated "I'm surprised that Kleiner has put money into it."[24] Andrew Burke, another expert who visited EEStor stated the consensus among experts was that the dielectric constant could not stay as high as claimed at the voltage levels claimed (i.e. energy density could not be that high). He stated EEStor would not provide any data to contradict the experts.[25]

Despite going into talks with numerous clients, including GM, Lockheed Martin, LightEV, Venture Vehicles, Zenn, and a number of others, no EESU prototypes have been publicly independently tested or acknowledged by anyone outside the company.

Even if the technology were to be proved sound, doubts remain regarding its potential safety and real-world applicability. High energy density, an order of magnitude higher than best commercially available supercapacitors and 2-3 times higher than that of lithium-ion batteries, combined with the mechanism of action that depends on maintaining potential differences of thousands of volts across micrometer distances, suggest that EESU capacitors could be prone to catastrophic meltdowns; in other words, external damage to the unit (say, in a traffic accident), that results in an internal short could instantaneously release all stored energy (52 kwh in a fully charged standard unit - the equivalent of 45 kg of TNT), evaporating the unit and causing severe damage to everything in its proximity.
CarloSW2
__________________

What's your EPA MPG? Go Here and find out!
American Solar Energy Society

Last edited by cfg83; 10-07-2009 at 03:54 AM..
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2009, 07:13 AM   #3 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 659

Chug - '96 Volkswagon Polo CL
TEAM VW AUDI Group
90 day: 49.42 mpg (US)

L'Autre - '03 Renault Megane Sport Tourer Expression
Diesel
90 day: 45.02 mpg (US)
Thanks: 20
Thanked 12 Times in 12 Posts
granted fuel vapour is a little sensitive to ignition but 45Kg of TNT!!!!

after racing RC cars for a few years i've had LiPo go crispy on me and Thats scary!

kinda tempting though............. in a perverse way
__________________
-----------------------------------------
good things come to those who wait, sh*t turns up pretty much instantly






twitter.com/bertchalmers
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2009, 09:57 AM   #4 (permalink)
...beats walking...
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: .
Posts: 6,190
Thanks: 179
Thanked 1,525 Times in 1,126 Posts
...anyone familiar with electronics is WELL AWARE of how violently simple electrolytic and solid tantalum capacitors can EXPLODE...for whatever reason!

...electrolytics turn the water in the electrolytic 'paste' into instant steam, while tantalums when "reverse-charged" conduct and thermally disintegrate.

...sounds like a "real" flux-gate capacitor candidate! Where are all our DeLorean's?
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2009, 12:16 PM   #5 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Earth
Posts: 5,209
Thanks: 225
Thanked 811 Times in 594 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by robchalmers View Post
granted fuel vapour is a little sensitive to ignition but 45Kg of TNT!!!!
That's just about the energy released from the gas in a typical 10-15 gallon tank. If you vaporize it first, you do get a nice explosion. (Look up fuel-air explosives.)

I'd be a little concerned about the energy flow going in on their quick recharge. Anyone for some nice energetic plasma?
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2009, 12:42 PM   #6 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
NeilBlanchard's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Maynard, MA Eaarth
Posts: 7,907

Mica Blue - '05 Scion xA RS 2.0
Team Toyota
90 day: 42.48 mpg (US)

Forest - '15 Nissan Leaf S
Team Nissan
90 day: 156.46 mpg (US)

Number 7 - '15 VW e-Golf SEL
TEAM VW AUDI Group
90 day: 155.81 mpg (US)
Thanks: 3,475
Thanked 2,950 Times in 1,844 Posts
Hi,

Here's a very helpful thread over at the Aptera Forum:

EEStor EESU thread

Apparently, EEStor has started working with Underwriters Laboratories, which is very encouraging.
__________________
Sincerely, Neil

http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2009, 01:27 PM   #7 (permalink)
Administrator
 
Daox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Germantown, WI
Posts: 11,203

CM400E - '81 Honda CM400E
90 day: 51.49 mpg (US)

Daox's Grey Prius - '04 Toyota Prius
Team Toyota
90 day: 49.53 mpg (US)

Daox's Insight - '00 Honda Insight
90 day: 64.33 mpg (US)

Swarthy - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage DE
Mitsubishi
90 day: 56.69 mpg (US)

Daox's Volt - '13 Chevrolet Volt
Thanks: 2,501
Thanked 2,585 Times in 1,553 Posts
That is good news Neil. However, ultracapacitors have been 'almost there' for years now. I'll believe it when I see them.
__________________
Current project: A better alternator delete
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2009, 01:37 PM   #8 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Ryland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Western Wisconsin
Posts: 3,903

honda cb125 - '74 Honda CB 125 S1
90 day: 79.71 mpg (US)

green wedge - '81 Commuter Vehicles Inc. Commuti-Car

Blue VX - '93 Honda Civic VX
Thanks: 867
Thanked 433 Times in 353 Posts
We don't need the high discharge rate for a car, the quick charge would be nice but lithium batteries like the A123 system batteries can handle an 80% charge in 10 minutes? any faster and your electrical service is going to have a hard time keeping up.
I could see having a bank of capacitors that are used for absorbing the braking energy and that get charged while the vehicle is charging for starting from a dead stop.
The big draw back of capacitors is that as you discharge them their voltage drops drastically.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2009, 01:47 PM   #9 (permalink)
Chevy and CB Radio Lover
 
Jammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: East Kentucky
Posts: 302
Thanks: 13
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Send a message via Yahoo to Jammer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Tele man View Post
...anyone familiar with electronics is WELL AWARE of how violently simple electrolytic and solid tantalum capacitors can EXPLODE...for whatever reason!

...electrolytics turn the water in the electrolytic 'paste' into instant steam, while tantalums when "reverse-charged" conduct and thermally disintegrate.

...sounds like a "real" flux-gate capacitor candidate! Where are all our DeLorean's?
Yeah, I can already hear Huey Lewis and The New's jamming along here...

I used to blow up those caps you mentioned in vocational DC electronics class in High School by attaching 110AC to them - BAM-Poof!

I think our good MOD has pointed out a real safety problem with this battery. Some might say it is too high a price to pay for what is otherwise a rather cool battery. It's a real good start sounds like though.... Maybe in time they can make it safer.

Last edited by Jammer; 10-07-2009 at 11:41 PM..
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2009, 02:02 PM   #10 (permalink)
Chevy and CB Radio Lover
 
Jammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: East Kentucky
Posts: 302
Thanks: 13
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Send a message via Yahoo to Jammer
After reading all about it on Wikipedia, I'm on the fence. I have been involved with electronics, and educated in such, ever since I was in 7th grade in basic electricity class. It appears this thing is really a large high power capacitor, and the critics doubts seem fairly sound and logical based on what little I know of this technology. The one thing that I think we all should heed is the fact that some mighty powerful companies have had a shot at using this battery, and for whatever reason they choose not to have anything to do with it. On speculation, I guessing it may have to do with $$ and any rights by the owner/inventor, or it could very well be safety related, and that's one thing most large companies run away from fast, is more liability likelihood.

  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread


Thread Tools




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com