Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > Aerodynamics
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 01-15-2008, 02:41 PM   #1 (permalink)
Batman Junior
 
MetroMPG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: 1000 Islands, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 22,515

Blackfly - '98 Geo Metro
Team Metro
Last 3: 70.09 mpg (US)

MPGiata - '90 Mazda Miata
90 day: 52.71 mpg (US)

Even Fancier Metro - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage top spec
90 day: 70.75 mpg (US)

Appliance car - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage ES (base)
90 day: 52.48 mpg (US)
Thanks: 4,062
Thanked 6,960 Times in 3,604 Posts
Video: tuft testing (rear) 1993 Ford Mustang notchback

This is the style of car:




Note the turbulence over the entire rear window & most of the trunk lid.

The sharp transition & steep angle of the rear glass causes flow to separate at the trailing edge of the roof, with likely little to no reattachment on the trailing end of the trunk lid due to its low height & short length.

This design creates a large turbulent wake.

Foxbody Mustang Aero: Tuft Test @ 70mph (Stock)




Foxbody Mustang Aero: Tuft Test @ 50mph (Stock)



__________________
Project MPGiata! Mods for getting 50+ MPG from a 1990 Miata
Honda mods: Ecomodding my $800 Honda Fit 5-speed beater
Mitsu mods: 70 MPG in my ecomodded, dirt cheap, 3-cylinder Mirage.
Ecodriving test: Manual vs. automatic transmission MPG showdown



EcoModder
has launched a forum for the efficient new Mitsubishi Mirage
www.MetroMPG.com - fuel efficiency info for Geo Metro owners
www.ForkenSwift.com - electric car conversion on a beer budget
  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 01-15-2008, 02:47 PM   #2 (permalink)
Batman Junior
 
MetroMPG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: 1000 Islands, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 22,515

Blackfly - '98 Geo Metro
Team Metro
Last 3: 70.09 mpg (US)

MPGiata - '90 Mazda Miata
90 day: 52.71 mpg (US)

Even Fancier Metro - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage top spec
90 day: 70.75 mpg (US)

Appliance car - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage ES (base)
90 day: 52.48 mpg (US)
Thanks: 4,062
Thanked 6,960 Times in 3,604 Posts
It's probably a safe guess that the owner doesn't care a lot about fuel economy.

But the poor rear aero of this design limits the top speed, and hurts acceleration at higher speeds.
__________________
Project MPGiata! Mods for getting 50+ MPG from a 1990 Miata
Honda mods: Ecomodding my $800 Honda Fit 5-speed beater
Mitsu mods: 70 MPG in my ecomodded, dirt cheap, 3-cylinder Mirage.
Ecodriving test: Manual vs. automatic transmission MPG showdown



EcoModder
has launched a forum for the efficient new Mitsubishi Mirage
www.MetroMPG.com - fuel efficiency info for Geo Metro owners
www.ForkenSwift.com - electric car conversion on a beer budget
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2008, 02:55 PM   #3 (permalink)
Administrator
 
Daox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Germantown, WI
Posts: 11,203

CM400E - '81 Honda CM400E
90 day: 51.49 mpg (US)

Daox's Grey Prius - '04 Toyota Prius
Team Toyota
90 day: 49.53 mpg (US)

Daox's Insight - '00 Honda Insight
90 day: 64.33 mpg (US)

Swarthy - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage DE
Mitsubishi
90 day: 56.69 mpg (US)

Daox's Volt - '13 Chevrolet Volt
Thanks: 2,501
Thanked 2,586 Times in 1,554 Posts
I would assume then that something similar to what is pictured below would benefit the aerodynamics in this instance? By raising up the trunk (possibly a lot) and reattaching airflow?




Is there a generally agreed upon relief angle (rear window angle off the roof) which should not be passed as far as aero is concerned? I've heard 15-20° is generally good. Obviously emulating the tear drop is optimal.

I should really just go and buy a book on aerodynamics and/or fluid mechanics... Any recommendations there?
__________________
Current project: A better alternator delete
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2008, 03:03 PM   #4 (permalink)
Batman Junior
 
MetroMPG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: 1000 Islands, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 22,515

Blackfly - '98 Geo Metro
Team Metro
Last 3: 70.09 mpg (US)

MPGiata - '90 Mazda Miata
90 day: 52.71 mpg (US)

Even Fancier Metro - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage top spec
90 day: 70.75 mpg (US)

Appliance car - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage ES (base)
90 day: 52.48 mpg (US)
Thanks: 4,062
Thanked 6,960 Times in 3,604 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daox View Post
I would assume then that something similar to what is pictured below would benefit the aerodynamics in this instance? By raising up the trunk (possibly a lot) and reattaching airflow?
Except remember the angle of that particular appendage is designed to generate more downforce than reduce Cd.

If it were level, or even angled slightly down (retaining a sharp cutoff), then there's more of a chance flow would reattach and separate cleanly, leaving a smaller wake.

Ford actually added something similar to the hatchback version of the car:



They could have done the equivalent to the notchback too.
__________________
Project MPGiata! Mods for getting 50+ MPG from a 1990 Miata
Honda mods: Ecomodding my $800 Honda Fit 5-speed beater
Mitsu mods: 70 MPG in my ecomodded, dirt cheap, 3-cylinder Mirage.
Ecodriving test: Manual vs. automatic transmission MPG showdown



EcoModder
has launched a forum for the efficient new Mitsubishi Mirage
www.MetroMPG.com - fuel efficiency info for Geo Metro owners
www.ForkenSwift.com - electric car conversion on a beer budget
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2008, 03:23 PM   #5 (permalink)
Batman Junior
 
MetroMPG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: 1000 Islands, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 22,515

Blackfly - '98 Geo Metro
Team Metro
Last 3: 70.09 mpg (US)

MPGiata - '90 Mazda Miata
90 day: 52.71 mpg (US)

Even Fancier Metro - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage top spec
90 day: 70.75 mpg (US)

Appliance car - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage ES (base)
90 day: 52.48 mpg (US)
Thanks: 4,062
Thanked 6,960 Times in 3,604 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daox View Post
Is there a generally agreed upon relief angle (rear window angle off the roof) which should not be passed as far as aero is concerned?
I've read the initial transition shouldn't exceed approx. 10 degrees. You can exceed the angle, after the initial 10 degrees, if it's done gradually.

As for overall rear angles, I can't find the reference at the moment. But there is definite agreement that up to a certain overall (average?) angle is OK, then there's a zone past that where drag increases significantly, and beyond that, it's reduced again. I'll have to dig it up.

Books: you could look for Hucho or R H Barnard.
__________________
Project MPGiata! Mods for getting 50+ MPG from a 1990 Miata
Honda mods: Ecomodding my $800 Honda Fit 5-speed beater
Mitsu mods: 70 MPG in my ecomodded, dirt cheap, 3-cylinder Mirage.
Ecodriving test: Manual vs. automatic transmission MPG showdown



EcoModder
has launched a forum for the efficient new Mitsubishi Mirage
www.MetroMPG.com - fuel efficiency info for Geo Metro owners
www.ForkenSwift.com - electric car conversion on a beer budget
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2008, 03:30 PM   #6 (permalink)
Administrator
 
Daox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Germantown, WI
Posts: 11,203

CM400E - '81 Honda CM400E
90 day: 51.49 mpg (US)

Daox's Grey Prius - '04 Toyota Prius
Team Toyota
90 day: 49.53 mpg (US)

Daox's Insight - '00 Honda Insight
90 day: 64.33 mpg (US)

Swarthy - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage DE
Mitsubishi
90 day: 56.69 mpg (US)

Daox's Volt - '13 Chevrolet Volt
Thanks: 2,501
Thanked 2,586 Times in 1,554 Posts
Have you read either of these books?
__________________
Current project: A better alternator delete
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2008, 03:50 PM   #7 (permalink)
Batman Junior
 
MetroMPG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: 1000 Islands, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 22,515

Blackfly - '98 Geo Metro
Team Metro
Last 3: 70.09 mpg (US)

MPGiata - '90 Mazda Miata
90 day: 52.71 mpg (US)

Even Fancier Metro - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage top spec
90 day: 70.75 mpg (US)

Appliance car - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage ES (base)
90 day: 52.48 mpg (US)
Thanks: 4,062
Thanked 6,960 Times in 3,604 Posts
I have Barnard's book. But from what I hear, the Hucho one is better (good luck finding it at less than $140).

Re: rear hatch angle, Barnard says: Drag is reduced with increasing angle up to the 10-15 degrees range (no exact figure is given). As you go beyond that, it begins increasing again and peaks around 30 degrees.

About a 30 degree angle creates more drag than any other angle. It's actually worse to have a 30 degree slope than to simply chop the vehicle off at that point.

Beyond approx. 30 degrees flow separates at the roof, and the drag is like that of a squareback.
__________________
Project MPGiata! Mods for getting 50+ MPG from a 1990 Miata
Honda mods: Ecomodding my $800 Honda Fit 5-speed beater
Mitsu mods: 70 MPG in my ecomodded, dirt cheap, 3-cylinder Mirage.
Ecodriving test: Manual vs. automatic transmission MPG showdown



EcoModder
has launched a forum for the efficient new Mitsubishi Mirage
www.MetroMPG.com - fuel efficiency info for Geo Metro owners
www.ForkenSwift.com - electric car conversion on a beer budget
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2008, 03:52 PM   #8 (permalink)
Batman Junior
 
MetroMPG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: 1000 Islands, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 22,515

Blackfly - '98 Geo Metro
Team Metro
Last 3: 70.09 mpg (US)

MPGiata - '90 Mazda Miata
90 day: 52.71 mpg (US)

Even Fancier Metro - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage top spec
90 day: 70.75 mpg (US)

Appliance car - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage ES (base)
90 day: 52.48 mpg (US)
Thanks: 4,062
Thanked 6,960 Times in 3,604 Posts
Anybody want to split on a copy of Hucho's book? We could arrange joint custody. :P
__________________
Project MPGiata! Mods for getting 50+ MPG from a 1990 Miata
Honda mods: Ecomodding my $800 Honda Fit 5-speed beater
Mitsu mods: 70 MPG in my ecomodded, dirt cheap, 3-cylinder Mirage.
Ecodriving test: Manual vs. automatic transmission MPG showdown



EcoModder
has launched a forum for the efficient new Mitsubishi Mirage
www.MetroMPG.com - fuel efficiency info for Geo Metro owners
www.ForkenSwift.com - electric car conversion on a beer budget
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2008, 10:09 AM   #9 (permalink)
Deadly Efficient
 
Tango Charlie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Goshen, Indiana
Posts: 1,234

Olivia - '03 Pontiac Vibe base
90 day: 36.01 mpg (US)

R2-D2 - '00 Honda Insight
90 day: 58.81 mpg (US)
Thanks: 134
Thanked 176 Times in 91 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by MetroMPG View Post
Anybody want to split on a copy of Hucho's book? We could arrange joint custody. :P
I'll throw in $20 (US).
__________________
-Terry
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2008, 10:12 AM   #10 (permalink)
Batman Junior
 
MetroMPG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: 1000 Islands, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 22,515

Blackfly - '98 Geo Metro
Team Metro
Last 3: 70.09 mpg (US)

MPGiata - '90 Mazda Miata
90 day: 52.71 mpg (US)

Even Fancier Metro - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage top spec
90 day: 70.75 mpg (US)

Appliance car - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage ES (base)
90 day: 52.48 mpg (US)
Thanks: 4,062
Thanked 6,960 Times in 3,604 Posts
I already got my copy! Also, it's a fat, heavy book. Shipping a shared copy all around the continent probably wouldn't make sense.

I'd highly recommend getting a copy if you're interested in the subject. You won't regret spending the money. And you'll spend at least as much time in the book as you would in a movie theater for an equivalent amount of money

__________________
Project MPGiata! Mods for getting 50+ MPG from a 1990 Miata
Honda mods: Ecomodding my $800 Honda Fit 5-speed beater
Mitsu mods: 70 MPG in my ecomodded, dirt cheap, 3-cylinder Mirage.
Ecodriving test: Manual vs. automatic transmission MPG showdown



EcoModder
has launched a forum for the efficient new Mitsubishi Mirage
www.MetroMPG.com - fuel efficiency info for Geo Metro owners
www.ForkenSwift.com - electric car conversion on a beer budget
  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread




Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Video: someone DIY tuft testing a Volvo MetroMPG Aerodynamics 4 12-29-2007 02:07 AM



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com