Why don't vehicles have aerofoils to partially take the weight of the car?

[JulianEdgar]

It's amazing how people say stuff without thinking about it for even a few seconds.

Originally Posted by j-c-c

I'm open to all ideas, from anyone....

Well, my idea is that the moon is made of cheese. And I have another: the earth is flat.

Y'know, for a moment I thought people might laugh at those ideas, but I am so glad that you are open to them.

Originally Posted by aerohead

* those who dislike them are in no way obligated to participate.
* personally, I've never heard a stupid question.
* the only stupid question is, the one that was never asked.

Well, my question is this. Since I know that the moon is made of cheese, what type of cheese is it? Cheddar? Gouda?

And regarding the flat earth. What is on the other side?

Y'know, I was worried people might think these were stupid questions so I am so glad you wouldn't think that.

Originally Posted by aerohead

* bad ideas will not survive the light of day. They're not a threat.

Those are two astonishing statements of ignorance. The last 100 years shows that bad ideas, if accepted, can kill literally millions of people.

[aerohead]

Fly into Dallas Love Field, run downtown to the Federal Building, and spend a day with the Senior Corps Of Retired Executives ( SCORE ), who volunteer their time there for the Small Business Administration, and see if they'll tell you that kinda B.S..
While your there, grab a handful of free materials provided by the US PATENT OFFICE and see if any of their material jibes with your 'here'' here'.
Then go to the 6th-floor of the Dallas Public Library. They have all US and Foreign patents, either in the Gazettes, or on microfilm.
You'll be amazed at how wrong you and your experts are.
Then go ahead and contact patent holders and see if they ever actually made anything, let alone test it.
You've obviously never spent over 60-seconds immersing yourself in the subject.
You probably never heard of venture capitalists. They'll get your head screwed on straight for you.

[aerohead]

According to the experts, due to 100-years of 'good' ideas, we're currently on track to destroy 'billions' of people. By default.

[freebeard]

Originally Posted by Julian Edgar

Well, my question is this. Since I know that the moon is made of cheese, what type of cheese is it? Cheddar? Gouda?

And regarding the flat earth. What is on the other side?

Y'know, I was worried people might think these were stupid questions so I am so glad you wouldn't think that.

So why don't you want to discuss tail-dragger tricycles? IMHO the answer to the thread's question. Fuller and Jocko Johnson are no longer around to carry the torch.

[JulianEdgar]

Originally Posted by aerohead

While your there, grab a handful of free materials provided by the US PATENT OFFICE and see if any of their material jibes with your 'here'' here'.
Then go to the 6th-floor of the Dallas Public Library. They have all US and Foreign patents, either in the Gazettes, or on microfilm.
You'll be amazed at how wrong you and your experts are.

As I wrote before, as soon as Aerohead writes something here, you can be fairly confident it needs checking for its veracity. I've found it literally doesn't matter what the topic or subject is.

This is yet another example. From the US Patent and Trademark Office:

A patent cannot be obtained upon a mere idea or suggestion.

It's just astonishing the amount of misleading material that Aerohead posts here.

[AeroMcAeroFace]

Originally Posted by JulianEdgar

You cannot patent ideas, as a 30 second web search shows.

Why can't you patent an idea? Because an idea without evidence is valueless.

You can patent ideas without evidence or prototype, a common example of this in the UK is when British Rail (former nationalised rail provider) patented a passenger space vehicle powered by thermonuclear devices ignited from space lasers and steered using electromagnetism.

Thanks freebeard for trying to bring this debate back on topic. I have done a bit more research, and it seems further to the original SAE paper supporting the concept of aerofoil lifting to reduce rolling resistance, there is another SAE supporting paper here https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/207395374.pdf

I have included select quotes below

For instance, the creation of lift on
the vehicle (effective weight reduction) can unload the
tires and reduce rolling resistance,

For the conventional rig, the HP to overcome rolling resistance is linear with velocity. For the blown configurations,
lift is assumed to vary with blowing available and speed
squared, so the effective weight of the vehicle reduces as
the lift increases with speed.

For these cases, at
a sample speed of 70 mph, the power required for the
conventional rig to overcome drag plus rolling resistance
can be reduced 24% by the lesser pneumatic configuration and 32% by the more effective one

[j-c-c]

Originally Posted by JulianEdgar

It's amazing how people say stuff without thinking about it for even a few seconds.



Well, my idea is that the moon is made of cheese. And I have another: the earth is flat.

Y'know, for a moment I thought people might laugh at those ideas, but I am so glad that you are open to them.



Well, my question is this. Since I know that the moon is made of cheese, what type of cheese is it? Cheddar? Gouda?

And regarding the flat earth. What is on the other side?

Y'know, I was worried people might think these were stupid questions so I am so glad you wouldn't think that.



Those are two astonishing statements of ignorance. The last 100 years shows that bad ideas, if accepted, can kill literally millions of people.

I guess arrogance is like stupidity, it knows no limits.

Your above assumption on thoughts that you can't understand, that they where only considered for less than a few seconds before sharing, is a good example of both in my world, especially now that you have tried to go beyond even doubling down in your attempt to wiggle out of your original blanket narrow statement on "ideas".

The hole here is getting deeper.

You are the one I am tempted to laugh at.

[aerohead]

Right now, the only thing to come to mind would be 'DRAG QUEENS' by Don Sherman of CAR and DRIVER.
All the vehicles are fairly contemporary.
We are given drag and lift measurements for them.
We're given frontal areas for coefficients.
From their technical specifications we'll have the individual static axle loadings.
From the 300-foot skid-pad data we'll know their lateral acceleration values in g-force.
Curb weight, to EPA test weight
Front and rear overhang ( moment arms )
From those we can calculate lift for any velocity.
We'll know what tires are used.
Braking g-force will be known.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From there, it's a matter of wing section selection, dimensions, positioning on the vehicle, available attachment hard points, angle -of-attack, lift-to-drag ratios, velocity, suspension dynamics ( or not ), delta- body inclination ( or not ), tire sidewall growth/ circumference dynamics, delta- ground clearance ( or not ), sensors, surveillance /monitoring, logic, menus, Go, No Go thresholds, triggers, signals, feedback, event-horizons, reaction times, temporal dynamic inertial displacement initiation timeframes, lift-abort enabling, events within events, actuator time lag, stabilization recovery recognition, resets, ........................................ whew!

[Isaac Zachary]

Maybe it's an apple to oranges comparison, but for some reason this thread has me thinking about some of the similarities to hydrofoil boats.

Anyhow, I don't think anyone has actually attempted to make a vehicle that specifically has air foils designed to create partial lift for the purpose of reducing rolling resistance.

But what if we were to try to do that.

• The air foil(s) would have to support a lot of weight and so would need to be strong. But that would add weight.
• The lifting force would be affected by speed. This wouldn't help at low speeds. So a vehicle built this way would likely have more rolling resistance at lower speeds due to the weight of the air foil(s). It also means that an airfoil that takes off half the weight at 60mph might take off a lot more, maybe all, at 75 or 80mph, unless you have some way to adjust it, such as its size.
• For it to be beneficial, it would have to create less air drag than the amount of rolling resistance that it removes. I do believe that can be achieved. If air foils were terrible air drag makers then things like sail planes would not work.
• Ideally we'd want the air foil(s) to be adjustable, so that we could remove the lift when needed, maybe even creating down force on the fly. How fast can the air foil(s) be adjusted is a good question, as well as what would be controlling it (them).
• Is there any other tech that could reduce rolling resistance that would be more practical than wings? For an example, extremely low-rolling resistance tires of some sort? Putting train tracks on all roads? Maglev? Ultralight vehicles?

One idea I had years ago was to make one big solar panel that would be installed raised up off the top of the car. That way you could have a solar panel that takes up the entire square footage of the top of the vehicle without covering the windshield and rear window in PV cells. The solar panel would have to be curved to follow the air flow line over the top of the car. Small movements in tilt would likely create substantial lift or down force with such a solar panel, or so it would seem to me.

[freebeard]

Searches including Drag Queens turns up this article on the history of testing:

www.hagerty.com/media/automotive-history/car-testings-first-century-has-been-a-fascinating-ride/

But I think you meant www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/the-slipperiest-car-on-the-road.pdf