Why no diesel Prius?

[123]

Frank I agree that hybrids make the most sense in city driving.

I would love to see a diesel hybrid setup that uses electric drive and only uses the diesel engine for charging the batteries. In Amsterdam they have a project called the Whispering Wheel. They converted buses to be electric and removed the diesel engine and replaced it with a smaller diesel generator to charge the batteries. The smaller diesel engine is always running at the engines most efficient rpm. The bus went from something like 4mpg to 13mpg.

[thatguitarguy]

I'm late to this thread, so forgive me if I'm repeating what someone else has already said.

My question would be: Why no plug in Prius?

As far as diesel/electric hybrids, I drove a bus in Vail that is just that. I don't know the size of the diesel engine, but they were using these buses in the core of "Vail Village" where the top speed was 20MPH. They were starting to experiment more with putting them on outlying routes where they would get up to 45MPH to see if fuel savings were there. I don't know how much fuel they saved. I was just a driver, and they didn't share that information with me, but they were ordering more of the hybrid buses, so that says something because they are more than $300,000 a pop. 'Gotta have some kind of fuel savings to make that worthwhile.

A plug in wouldn't work for a bus because it's in service at least 18 hours a day 7 days a week, so there's not enough charge time. They are large and heavy so they use lead-acid batteries. Biodiesel doesn't work as well here in the mountains because of gelling issues in the low temps. Colorado gets a lot of sunshine, and with the large area on top of the bus, I thinking it would be ideal for placing high output photovoltaic cells, but that might be adding too much complexity and expense to an already expensive vehicle.

[tjts1]

Diesel engines are expensive. VW charges an additional $4700 for the TDI engine Golf over the 2.5 gasser.

[tasdrouille]

Originally Posted by tjts1

Diesel engines are expensive. VW charges an additional $4700 for the TDI engine Golf over the 2.5 gasser.

Not even close. The cars you compare are not even similarly equiped. The $4700 extra for the 2 doors Golf includes a fancy touch screen premium audio system, an upgraded iterior finish with leather steering wheel, a lowerred suspension with 17" alloy wheels and a dual exhaust tip. All this bling is worth a lot in an OEM's book.

A way better comparaison would be the Jetta TDI vs the Jetta 2.5 SE, where equipment is pretty much the same, the premium for the diesel engine is $2265. Which you easily recoup in resale value btw.

I agree the reason we don't see diesel hybrids is the prohibitive cost of both techs combined, but VW don't charge $4700 extra for a diesel engine...

On the lower spectrum of the scale, Audi only charges $1200 extra for their diesel A3.

[tjts1]

Originally Posted by tasdrouille

Not even close.

2 Door Golf $17,490
2 Door Golf TDI $22,189
Difference = $4,699
This is the cheapest diesel car you can buy in America today.

Originally Posted by tasdrouille

The cars you compare are not even similarly equiped. The $4700 extra for the 2 doors Golf includes a fancy touch screen premium audio system, an upgraded iterior finish with leather steering wheel, a lowerred suspension with 17" alloy wheels and a dual exhaust tip. All this bling is worth a lot in an OEM's book.

Its all cheap fluff to the manufacturer. VW doesn't offer a stripped out TDI because they could never turn a profit selling these cars for less than $20k. The emissions controls on diesel engines today are more expensive than hybrid technology. You can only turn a profit with diesel engines in this country on very expensive models where you already padded the bottom line with hefty 'luxury' items.

Originally Posted by tasdrouille

On the lower spectrum of the scale, Audi only charges $1200 extra for their diesel A3.

A $30,000 mini me hatch back? No thanks.

I would love to see a cheap diesel Yaris or Polo in this country but the manufacturers could never turn a profit on these cars with the emission requirements we have today. Combining diesel and hybrid tech in one car becomes obscenely expensive.

[tasdrouille]

Originally Posted by tjts1

2 Door Golf $17,490
2 Door Golf TDI $22,189
Difference = $4,699
This is the cheapest diesel car you can buy in America today.

In that case you should just compare with the cheapest gasoline car you can buy in America today. If you want to know the premium associated with the engine you have to compare similarly equipped cars.

[tjts1]

Originally Posted by tasdrouille

If you want to know the premium associated with the engine you have to compare similarly equipped cars.

Which I did.

If VW could turn a profit selling a stripped out TDI, they would. They added the fluff items to the TDI in order to try to hide the high cost of the diesel engine and its emissions controls.

[tasdrouille]

Originally Posted by tjts1

Which I did.

If VW could turn a profit selling a stripped out TDI, they would. They added the fluff items to the TDI in order to try to hide the high cost of the diesel engine and its emissions controls.

Well, everyone is entitled to his opinion.

Good luck.

[rmay635703]

Originally Posted by tjts1

I would love to see a cheap diesel Yaris or Polo in this country but the manufacturers could never turn a profit on these cars with the emission requirements we have today. Combining diesel and hybrid tech in one car becomes obscenely expensive.

Emissions are not really the reason either (I don't really agree with the emissions standards being placed on small diesel or gas vehicles though anyway but for different reasons)

Diesel exhaust can be cleaned to simple water and CO2 using WATER!

This has been known since the 20's and is the reason much of the underground heavy equip is diesel. The exhaust can be cleaned up 100%. My father drove a 100 ton mine car that used this hi tech 55 gallon water pail system.

And if you want to get real snazzy add calcium chloride or magnesium chloride (driveway salt), then the water can't freeze and need not be dumped as it can be recovered by adding more salt periodically and dumping the small amount Calcium Sulphate (fertalizer) and the like into the trash periodically or use it on your lawn.

Too bad auto companies and the government don't issue emissions standards to improve the environment or you might see workable loopholes like the one I mentioned above available.

Apparently cleaning your exhaust with saltwater is good enough for most large ocean vessels but works too well for the auto industry?

Heck you could run a malfunctioning 2 cycle diesel from the 50's and still have clean exhaust using water, which begs the question why not?

[Frank Lee]

Interesting...