Dealer says ScanGauge ruined my PCM and I can't use ScanGauge anymore - Fuel Economy, Hypermiling, EcoModding News and Forum

Markmysite · 08-21-2008, 12:03 PM

I've had my car into my local dealer 5 times now for a check engine light code (PO171: air-fuel ration, feedback is stable after warm up, but rich on start up), which is a lean running condition.They checked the mass air flow sensor, engine coolant temp sensor, changed the front O2 sensor, checked the pcv, says the fuel pressure is ok, and have replaced all 4 injectors.

Basically, they have went down the list and keep calling GM technical support and have no clue what the issue is that is causing the code. They asked me about my ScanGauge on the 2nd trip because their tech thought it might be sending codes to the ECM and PCM and is screwing it up. I explained it is only reading and not changing or flashing anything. I also explained that the check engine light was also on BEFORE I even bought the ScanGauge and plugged it in. Well, now they are trying to tell me that it is screwing up the PCM because it makes the car get better fuel economy (they went online to see what a ScanGauge was). I don't think they read the part about it helps with fuel economy by giving you read outs so you can adjust your driving patterns.

Anyhow, they also said they can't even reflash the PCM like they can on GM cars. So, they are going to replace the PCM, but told me I can't plug my ScanGauge back in after or it will void my warranty on the PCM in the future (at any GM dealer).

Has anyone ever had a dealer tell them they can't use their ScanGauge? Do you think they are just grasping for straws here?

Daox · 08-21-2008, 12:10 PM

They are definitly grasping for straws. They don't know what the scangauge is, so they blame it. Its a lot easier than fixing the problem correctly. This seems to be a common dealer/mechanic problem (not with the scangauge, just in general). They said it themselves, the PCM can not be flashed, so the engine can't be effected by the scangauge.

I'd probably just comply with them for now, and if the new PCM fixes the problem I'd put the scangauge back on. There is no way that it is the problem.

millenniumtree · 08-21-2008, 12:16 PM

I had a friend in College who had to take his shiny chrome header pipes off EVERY time he brought the car in for service, because putting them in voided the warranty.

Just remove the scanguage before you go in for services.

Incompetents, though. Straw-grasping incompetents.

Markmysite · 08-21-2008, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daox

They said it themselves, the PCM can not be flashed, so the engine can't be effected by the scangauge.

LOL ... that's a great point, didn't even think of saying that back to them. I will when they pick me up to go get a rental car. They are very nice there and I don't think they're trying to screw me over at all. They just can't figure it out so they are looking for causes. The ECM and PCM are the very last things on their list to fix so they are getting worried I think.

Markmysite · 08-21-2008, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by millenniumtree

I had a friend in College who had to take his shiny chrome header pipes off EVERY time he brought the car in for service, because putting them in voided the warranty.

Just remove the scanguage before you go in for services.

Incompetents, though. Straw-grasping incompetents.

Yeah I thought about just unplugging it, but I had the cord all tucked up nice under the dash and door trim. I didn't want to redo it so I left it on ... stupid me.

RH77 · 08-21-2008, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markmysite

They are very nice there and I don't think they're trying to screw me over at all.

The "front" people are nice, but behind the scenes scammery could be afoot.

Ask any mechanic who worked at a dealer shop. Many are very good, but the service manager makes a lot of decision making.

I'm not saying all of them...

RH77

Red · 08-21-2008, 01:05 PM

Just a bunch of nuts. If they weren't going to fix it, I'd say take it to a Toyota dealership as the Vibe is the same thing as the Matrix

ankit · 08-21-2008, 01:49 PM

Stealerships will always try to take the easy way out. In addition to this, they will always try to relate an aftermarket part to play a role in the problem so that it is not covered under warranty.

What I say is get a clean start. Goto another dealership. Maybe even take the scanguage off and get a second opinion from them. See how it goes from there.

Markmysite · 08-21-2008, 02:07 PM

Well, I called Linear-Logic (company who makes SG) as soon as they were open. I spoke with Ron DeLong (the inventor of the ScanGauge) for quite a while. He was not happy to hear them saying that the SG could be the cause and said that if that's the case then GM and Toyota are selling a car that is non-OBDII compliant and that it is against the law. He said that if in fact the SG is causing the problem, that GM and Toyota are going to need to issue a recall of every single vehicle that is not meeting the compliance laws.

He asked for the dealer name, phone and contact person in service. He got my name, car make, model and year. He said he would call my dealer when we got off the phone. Well, he called the dealer and explained what his product does, that it could not cause this issue, and so on. He also explained that his company would take legal action from this point if needed. I assume Linear-Logic would not like such unsubstantiated claims continuing to be made ... heh.

Anyhow, during this time the service manager was on her way to pick me up to get me a rental car. Ron called me back while I was in the car with her to let me know what he said to the service person at the dealer. He also let me know that he left the service mgr a voice mail (I let him know I was in the car with her and he said to tell her about it).

So, I get my rental car and leave. 8 minutes later Ron calls again to let me know he spoke with the manager and they will replace my PCM under warranty. She still persisted that the SG might be 1 bad one in 50,000 and it could be the cause. So, to nullify that issue Ron is going to send me a brand new replacement unit express mail.

Ron also told her that he thinks changing the PCM will not fix that code (which I had already brought up to the dealer), and that he thinks it's a vacuum leak issue. He explained how to check for it while driving and everything. I don't know if they will do what he asked, but he is going so far out of his way to help me it's unbelievable. I've never, ever dealt with a company who was this helpful and responsive. Talk about customer service, and from the inventor/owner no less.

He also advised me of lemon-law application to this issue, and we discussed the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. Basically, the dealer is going to have to fix this CEL code or get me a new car, period. Ron ended our conversation with this, "Mark we will get this whole situation figured out, don't worry about it". How freaking cool is this guy?!?!?!?!?

Daox · 08-21-2008, 02:17 PM

Awesome.

Markmysite · 08-21-2008, 02:18 PM

Ron proved to me that he and his legal team do indeed have our backs. Here's a link to a video of an interview Ron did on MSNBC ... if you're curious about the SG or what Ron is like.

A gadget that saves gas - AOL Video

Another audio interview he did:
http://www.podtech.net/home/3665/scangauge

Whoops · 08-21-2008, 02:38 PM

The way that the scangauge intefaces with the ecm it would be enormously unlikely that the scangauge is causing any problems along the line of a lean engine code. The problem is that without knowing what is causing the problem, they are groping for straws. I would pull the scangauge, completely and not install it until after they figure out the problem.

It sounds like scangauge is trying to do everything it can, to help. Obviously, hind sight, pull the scangauge and if they ask if a scanner has been plugged in, tell them yes, that is how I know the error code. Scangauge is doing the exact same thing as any other engine error code scanner, so if that voids your warranty, then everybody who ever uses any scanner is going to be voiding the warranty. Good luck with the car.

cfg83 · 08-21-2008, 04:34 PM

Markmysite -

They are lying. Linear-Logic rulezzzzzz!

CarloSW2

Johnny Mullet · 08-21-2008, 10:02 PM

That code is obviously a vacuum leak and the mechanics cannot find it. Maybe you can find it yourself? Do a good visual and then start the car up until warm, spray parts cleaner/carb cleaner around the intake and vacuum hoses liberally and listen or "feel" for the engine RPM changing, then you pinpointed the vacuum leak.

I used to work at a dealer and it seems their inability to solve a simple problem and blame it on another product that has nothing to do with the PCM other than monitoring systems has created more problems than it solved.

Good luck my friend

RacerX · 08-21-2008, 11:39 PM

READ THIS!!...., I hope this helps..... Last year I had a VERY similar situation on an '06 vibe. Customer brings in their car with a "ck engine" light.. with the same lean code you have. After ALOT of time looking and I mean ALOT of time looking for the leak, This is what I found. On top of the transmission between the air cleaner box and the engine there is a solenoid with a vacuum lines running to it, It may even be bolted to a bracket that is bolted to the cylinder head or to the top of the trans. Right next to that or somewhere there about's is another hose coming from the air cleaner box that is also about the same size...about 5/16" or 3/8" . MAKE SURE that those hoses aren't backwards or mixed up some way/ some how. The best thing that I can say is, If you can find another Vibe and compare the hoses that come off of the air cleaner box and that solenoid and make sure your's are routed EXACTLY the same and going to the same ports. What it did on the one that I had was, The hoses were mixed up and it created a vacuum leak inside the air cleaner box. With the engine running I never heard a vacuum leak because the leak was inside the air cleaner box!!!...GOOD LUCK !!!

Not all dealerships are bad.....Only about 1% are good LOL

RacerX · 08-22-2008, 12:01 AM

Boy, You really have me thinking now. That was like two thousand cars ago

I'm not sure exactly what hose it was. But what I am sure of, Is that there is a hose that is about 5/16" that goes to the air cleaner box that can be easly mixed up with a ported vacuum hose that goes to that solenoid......If the air cleaner box assembly was removed at one time these hoses can be switched..... Man, now I'm not going to be able to sleep....

Markmysite · 08-22-2008, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Mullet

That code is obviously a vacuum leak and the mechanics cannot find it. Maybe you can find it yourself? Do a good visual and then start the car up until warm, spray parts cleaner/carb cleaner around the intake and vacuum hoses liberally and listen or "feel" for the engine RPM changing, then you pinpointed the vacuum leak.

I used to work at a dealer and it seems their inability to solve a simple problem and blame it on another product that has nothing to do with the PCM other than monitoring systems has created more problems than it solved.

Good luck my friend

I think so too. I was reading some posts in other forums about using either starting fluid or carb cleaner to find the leak. The thing is it's a very small leak and barely affects engine idle. I wonder if I spray around if it would uptick the engine still? Probably would I bet since it would feed directly in and rev it a bit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RacerX

Boy, You really have me thinking now. That was like two thousand cars ago

I'm not sure exactly what hose it was. But what I am sure of, Is that there is a hose that is about 5/16" that goes to the air cleaner box that can be easly mixed up with a ported vacuum hose that goes to that solenoid......If the air cleaner box assembly was removed at one time these hoses can be switched..... Man, now I'm not going to be able to sleep....

I hate that, like when you can't remember the name of a song or an actor but it's right on the tip of your tongue. Only when the person leaves do you actually remember it.

They are putting the new PCM in tomorrow. If that doesn't fix the CEL code (which I'm pretty sure it won't) I will go over there and try the spray trick and check those hoses on the air cleaner box. Maybe one is just even loose around there from when my oil was changed last and they looked at the filter.... wait a minute ... I bet that is it. I had my oil changed and they always check the air filter when you do that. I bet they knocked one of those hoses loose on the air box.

The plot thickens. Will post more tomorrow after I go to the dealer and check it out. Thanks for the tip... I think you might be onto something.

RacerX · 08-22-2008, 01:59 AM

Good luck, I now remember that they had intake manifold leak issues too....

I also agree that the computer won't fix it.....

Johnny Mullet · 08-22-2008, 07:38 AM

After you fix the problem yourself, you can get a job there as the new Service Manager

MetroMPG · 08-22-2008, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markmysite

Well, I called Linear-Logic (company who makes SG) as soon as they were open. I spoke with Ron DeLong (the inventor of the ScanGauge) for quite a while. ..... How freaking cool is this guy?!?!?!?!?

Ron's a smart cookie and is obviously concerned both about your personal situation and the potential harm that could be done to his business if dealerships get away with telling people that a ScanGauge could void a warranty. Imagine the potential impact on his bottom line of that rumour spreading unchallenged on the 'net.

I've also spoken to him at length, and he's the real deal.