Electric car conversion: Project ForkenSwift

[MetroMPG]

i guess we're kind of committed now...



fortunately they delivered it in the middle of the afternoon, when most of the neighbours weren't home.



got gravity? good, because the forklift came without a battery ("batteries not included. some assembly required"). note the technician "driving" the forklift off the truck bed.



the vehicle on the left is nearly 10 times the weight of the vehicle on the right.

[MetroMPG]

delivery was $125. we haven't decided if we'll have to have the trucking co. come back for the chassis to take it to the recycler, or whether we'll tow it ourselves (a friend has a 4wd hemi ram). the recycler is about 3 km from the house (2 mi.) we'll get about $200 for the scrap metal.

[MetroMPG]

Originally Posted by someone

might be able to sell some of the extra knick knacks off that thing

knick knacks, yeah. there are 2 huge hydraulic pistons in the front. it's a dual stage boom that probably extends up about 15-18 feet. plus the pumps and the valves and the couplings. they might be worth something to someone hydraulically inclined. other than that, it's just a LOT of steel.

we hooked up 3 deep cycle batts in series using jumper cables and fired it up. turned it around and moved it closer to the edge of the driveway to make it easier to get a car in/out of the garage.

that might have been a mistake! you can see the bricks move under the wheels, sinking in, especially near the edge. but, at least a brick driveway can be fixed afterwards. this thing would ruin an asphalt driveway.

[MetroMPG]

Originally Posted by someone

Hey keep the lift and use it to raise cars to work under them!! Easy way to do a belly pan!

you know, looking at that thing has me thinking similar thoughts. except more like: man, how flimsy our little cars are!

definitely easy to do a belly pan with this. i wish we could somehow use it to lift *itself* up so get at the motors. they have to come out from underneath. the technician says that's how they take them out at work - use another truck to lift up the back end and then block it. my buddy is tracking down some heavy duty jacks tomorrow. i'm going to start tracing wires to figure out how it's put together.

[MetroMPG]

latest news...

we can't use the lift to press down, unfortunately. it goes down by gravity only.

ramps... this thing wouldtn't really be able to drive up ramps with the juice we're (not) supplying it from our jumper-cabled 3 x 12v battery pack.

i'm seriously going to have a hard enough time driving the thing out of 1 - 2 inch divots its wheels have compressed into the driveway since i parked it on wednesday. truly. on the outside (softer) edge of the driveway, the narrower (steering) tire/wheel has pushed the bricks down about 2.5 inches. the larger & wider (front, lift end) wheels haven't sunk too much - maybe 1/2 inch.

spent today tracing wires, making crude schematics, and removing gew-gaws for possible ebay disposal: safety strobe, reverse beeper, horn, spotlights, hours-of-use meter...

also phoned up the company we got it from to ask if they had an extra service manual for the electronics side of things. i should have asked for this when we agreed to buy it. the tech said he figured they had an extra manual kicking around - hopefully they'll come through for us. that will save us mucho time in tracing, mapping & understanding all the components. a plea to the EVDL for any info on the antique EV-1 controller only netted one reply (unfortunately not too detailed - though he commended our "score" and said the EV-1 electronics are dead reliable, which is good news - and maybe self-evident considering their 25 year age and still-working condition ).

we borrowed and picked up a 20 ton railway jack this afternoon (used for lifting the rails for repairing the rail bed, i think). it's a manual "ratchet" type jack, a lot like an old car "bumper" jack, except on serious, serious steroids, and with a 5-foot handle.

so this weekend we'll see about raising & blocking the back end of the beast and performing the various motor-ectomies, and possibly hydraulic pump-ectomies too.

[MetroMPG]

irony of the week: took delivery of the forklift on wednesday.

thursday: geo metro conversion offered on the EV discussion list (EVDL) - for FREE to whoever comes and picks it up (in connecticut). needs batteries and cosmetic work (had been vandalized - windows, dents).

[MetroMPG]

Originally Posted by SVOboy

CT eh? You think it'll get picked up quickly?

ct is probably 10-12 hrs away from here.

but the free metro ev was claimed within an hour of that post going up.

we will stay the course! onwards to frankenswift! suzukistein!

[MetroMPG]

today: planned to jack up the forklift and begin the motorectomies. but we broke the (wooden) jack handle in short order. the jack, btw, must be at least 50 years old.

by the time we got a replacement "handle" (7 foot length of 2.5 inch pipe), we decided instead to just do a "test lift" instead.

it's surprising how long it can take 2 guys to figure out the basic operation of a dual action mechanical ratchet jack. anyway, we eventually did, and now the baker fork truck is resting on its frame on a couple of long wooden blocks, instead of slowly sinking further into the driveway at its tiny rear wheels.

also finished removing the gew-gaws, a number of steel panels, and the "headache bar" (roll cage). tomorrow we'll plan out our blocking strategy for the lift in a bit more detail. the motorectomies will likely happen sometime this week.

also, watched many hours of the 12 hrs of sebring in between playing with the forklift. that cool diesel audi is kicking gasoline's butt big time...

[MetroMPG]

some more pitchers...



beauty and the beast, another angle



that sinking feeling - we have since jacked it up and blocked it under the frame, so there's no weight on the skinny rear wheels any more.



ok, now i feel better



made in cleveland, ohio (i cut the bottom off). note the weight, with and without batt.

this week's plan: move it part way into the garage to use the concrete floor to raise & block the rear. motorectomies, control panelectomy, and partial hydraulics-ectomy, then call the scrap yard to come get the carcass.

[MetroMPG]

today's update: we jumper-cabled the 36v string of marine batteries together again and moved the forklift most of the way into the garage this afternoon (wouldn't go in all the way because of the boom height), chocked the wheels and commenced "the forklift lift" - with a 15-ton railway jack. the "lift" was necessary because the motors can only come out from underneath, and we opted not to take the cutting torch route to make our own access panels.

once lifted and blocked at multiple points using a *lot* of wood, two motor-ectomies were performed: the power steering motor (permanent magnet .88 hp continuous duty) and one of the hydraulic pump motors (possibly also PM - only 2 terminals - but it didn't have any other specifications on it - a mystery motor for now.)

that hydraulic motor is a beast: 8 inch diameter, 110 lbs. with that weighty revelation, suddenly our main concern about the traction motor's ability to go in the swift isn't its size, but its heft. it's going to be a monster - i'm guessing 200-400 lbs.

how much does a small four-cylinder engine with accessories weigh? 200 lbs?

we might have to get a beefier host vehicle that can take it. something like... a forklift?

[MetroMPG]

Originally Posted by SVOboy

My engine with tranny with fluids would weigh about 180 I'd say. I can pick it up by myself but of course I hurt myself in the process. I did it the other day,

yikes. i've heard the metro tranny only weighs 60 lbs. the 3-pot weighs 134.5 lbs. (just checked teamswift). so the 1.3 can't weigh more than 179.3 lbs (30% larger than the 1.0).

probably a safer bet is 160 lbs.

dang. that forklift traction motor is the same length as the ICE, but i'm afraid it's going to be as heavy as the 400 lb motor this guy used in his 60's chevelle forklift conversion:



http://poormansev.com

[MetroMPG]

Originally Posted by someone

Someone pointed out that a really big motor is probably pretty good at handling heat loads...

does size of a brushed motor relate directly to efficiency?

i understand that motor heat is a symptom of inefficiency, and a large motor like this is much less succeptible to overheating.

but is its low heating a result of some inherently more efficient design, or because it's just a better heat sink?

[MetroMPG]

in the forklift, none of the motors are exposed to moving air - they're all tucked up high underneath the chassis (of a slow-moving vehicle). and the fact that it was built for a low-voltage, high amp, poor cooling environment should mean its windings are extra beefy and it should be dead reliable.

it looks like all 4 motors have vents and internal shaft fans on them. (which is typical). the power steering motor's intake vent was *completely* full of dustbunnies, and the other motors were partially blocked. mildly greasy (hydraulic fluid?) dust bunnies.

still, replacing a 160lb engine with a 400 lb motor (guessing) is going to present new "challenges"...

[MetroMPG]

another couple of hours tinkering underneath a 16,600 lb forklift which didn't squash me like a bug = another successful late afternoon!

got the second hydraulic motor out and both hydraulic pumps:



above is a hydraulic motor: 8 inch diameter, approx 13 inch length, 110 lbs weight. the pump is on the right side of the motor.



this is the main traction motor, looking from the rear towards the front. that's the left front wheel in the pic. the beige bit furthest forward in line with the motor is the differential.

motor is approx 12 inch diameter, 15 inches long, not including the seat/safety brake assembly (closest end in the pic). it's like an inverse brake drum with the shoes around the outside. the drum is connected to the tailshaft of the motor, and the brakes are engaged/disengaged by a mechanical link to the driver's seat. when you're off the seat, it springs up and the motor is locked. it's effectively a parking brake since the motor is directly connected to the diff.

i took the thick electrical cables off the motor. the cable casing is printed with: "diesel and locomotive cable". how cool will that look under the hood of a suzuki swift.

so tomorrow's the big day. traction motor comes out, and then all's left is to fish the cables and control wires out of the chassis and remove the control panel (controller & contactors). SVOboy, i'd call you over to help move the motor, but i'm afraid you'd hurt yourself again

if i'm lucky, the scrapyard gets the leftovers on friday. if not, then first thing next week. i'm sure the neighbours will be happy to see the thing gone.

[MetroMPG]

trying to estimate the traction motor's weight: a quick comparison of the volume of each motor based on their outer dimensions, and the larger one is just under 2 times the volume.

assuming the innards are scaled proportionately, is it reasonable to guess the bigger motor is about 2x heavier?

i'm seriously hoping it's not 400 lbs. 220 would be nice.

[MetroMPG]

Originally Posted by RH77

"MetroMPG said... "diesel and locomotive cable". how cool will that look under the hood of a suzuki swift."

I just had a recurring idea. I grew up around locomotives with my father being an engineer. Long story short, I got to know how they worked from the time I was like 3 years old.

For those who don't know, it's an interesting process, which has worked well for over 50 years. The "Prime Mover" is the big Diesel engine that you hear rumbling. This engine ranges in number of cylinders 12-16, and the pistons are larger than you or I. Redline is around 500 RPM.

The Diesel engine turns a huge generator, which produces a schload of electricity. The electric power from the generator goes to the "Traction Motors", which is what moves the locomotive (some have 4, some 6). When slowing or going down a large hill, instead of burning up the brakes or losing air, many loco models have what's called "Dynamic Braking". The traction motor's polarity is reversed, and turned into generators. The resistance slows the train and sends the electricity to huge capacitors where the juice is lost in heat dissipation.

I've thought many times how this would work to power a car. Could a small engine and generator, in team with some batteries, use the same concept to make a car that's FE? The purpose of the batteries could be used to get the vehicle going, then the engine kicks in to get the power flowing to recharge the batteries and power the traction motor on the vehicle. In addition, regenerative/dynamic braking could charge the batteries. The question would be whether the generator and small engine would weigh more than the additional batteries on an electric-only setup. The range would definitely increase, as would the speed (depending on your electric motor). A plug-in system could re-charge the batts overnight. Almost like a hybrid, but perhaps more efficient.

Sorry to beat on GM again, but half locomotives out there are made by a division of GM, and the other half by GE. GM has the technology -- modify it into cars!

RH77

...

[MetroMPG]

Originally Posted by someone

Someone challenged RH77's suggestion that a series ICE/electric would be a good setting in a car

So RH77 replied...

I considered that. I asked this question about 20 years ago, of course with the answer that we have plenty of oil, why change the current powertrain design.

I agree with you on a few points, but also have some rebuttal. It's true that a loco doesn't have a series of gears: some are geared for high-speed, some are for raw power, low-speed, and in-between, etc. But with the absence of a transmission in a vehicle, that's additional weight savings. A parallel engine/motor idea is pretty efficient, but my goal is weight reduction. With Metro's setup, many heavy batteries may be required to store a decent charge to get around. I'm not saying to stick a 0.7L Diesel hooked to a separate generator, but an all-in-one design like a larger household generator -- those little things can power a house. It's only a theory, and I'm sure the current draw would bog it down, but it's an idea. The forklift motor itself looks pretty darn heavy by itself.

RH77

[MetroMPG]

What about an air powered hybrid?

Originally Posted by RH77

Hey, I made one of those in high school! Yes, I am and was a science nerd. For a competition we ran a small dune-buggy sized vehicle on compressed air. The "transmission" was an impact wrench hooked to a few compressed air tanks and welded to a low-resistance bicycle wheel. After it got going, it really started to take off, until we ran out of air :-( It had to be hydraulic as well, so we pumped our way around with pressurized transmission fluid. We're lucky that nothing blew up. Anyways, off-topic stuff.

Metro- any updates? Kind of excited to see this come together. The motor sounds like a ball-buster, though. Could you raise it up from under the car to it's mounts, using a jack or platform/jack?

RH77

[MetroMPG]

rh77 - good train post. the house is not far from a shunting yard, and i used to cross the tracks (illegally - but never got busted.. or busted up) when i worked at a nortel factory on the other side of the tracks.

the yard engines are icons of corporate wastefulness: they NEVER turn them off, from november through march. they idle continuously all winter. i suppose they're hard to start when cold, but thats' ridiculous.

as for why GM doesn't apply their train know-how to road vehicles? they actually are:

Ten GM Diesel Hybrid Buses to Oahu
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2004..._diesel_h.html

gm's hybrid strategy is interesting to say the least: focusing on the most "wasteful" vehicles first. there is some logic in it (more fuel is saved by improving a bus' mpg from 4 to 5 mpg, than a subcompacts' mpg from 40 to 50.) but it's not helping their green image.

[MetroMPG]

RH77 says...

You know, I do recall seeing that on "MotorWeek" TV. They're also working on vehicles like FedEx delivery trucks. On the GM-Allison test track they had the vehicle stopped, got up to about 10 mph on the electric motor, then the Diesel engine would start, ramp-up, and take-over automatically. We all know that from a standing stop, a huge amount of particulates are belched out of a Diesel truck. That was the focus. The question still remains (maybe I should research this first) but is a CNG bus less pollutive (another word that I probably made up -- I'm sticking with it). At any rate, I'm probably hard on GM because I was forced to buy one as my first car and after 4 senseless failures, I went down the Honda road and never looked back. In Northeastern Ohio, you get bad-mouthed for buying a "foreign" car, with all of the GM and Ford assembly plants around there. And of course we all knew someone who worked for them, so you had to buy one. I was fed up during college when my second Beretta started mixing the oil and coolant due to a blown head gasket. In a heated rage I dumped the Chevy and bought a Barebones Civic DX. The whole family gasped in horror! "Yeah, but it's made in Marysville, Ohio". That was the saving grace. Then when I bought my Evo, my Dad was like, "you know Mitsubishi made planes for the Japanese during World War II" -- mostly razzing me. Some generations just don't give up on International grudges. But for me, GM has rubbed me the wrong way in my generation four times, so I'm bitter. The 4 Honda/Acuras that we've had -- best investment. They've earned my trust.

Anyways, on my Dad's railroad, they shut down the locos at night -- in the Winter they plugged them into a 220V outlet to maintain heat for a slick start. I'm guessing the yard near your house has small "switch" engines, which are hard to start unless plugged-in. Another thing to consider is that they may operate them 24/7 by continuously putting trains together for the open "road", and idle between shifts or during lunchtime. The railroad is a strange employer. Time of day doesn't matter much when you work, and your shift could really vary. If they didn't have a 3rd shift and let them idle all night, that's just, well, not a good idea.

Thanks for the thumbs-up on the post...it's been a while ;-) Honestly I had it coming on some of those as I look back on them.