Propane or natural-gas conversion kits!

[blackjackel]

They can range from 100-200 for do-it-your-selfers to 1400 for a pre-made complete kit, and then you can have a switch to go back and forth between regular gasoline and gas....

My question is, what is the cost of propane or natural gas? I have no clue...

[tjts1]

Wow I would like to see some of those $100-200 kits.

[wikityler]

where I live autogas is $0.89/L, compared to regular which recently dropped to $1.429/L.
But remember that one L of autogas won't get you as far as a L of regular.

Where are these 'cheap' conversion kits you refer too?

[SatanicMechanic]

Auto Propane is usually a few cents higher than regular gasoline. When I was in high school, I used to drive a propane powered truck for a rental company. The company sold propane, so when we filled up the truck, it was charged as heating propane. Heating propane is cheaper because it does not have the state and federal fuel taxes.
If you convert over a vehicle to propane, rent or buy a very large tank, tell the propane people that is for a water heater and refuel your vehicle at your house.

Sometime I will tell you guys about the propane powered pickup my friend bought and how he used to steal proane from neighborhood BBQ's.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by wikityler

where I live autogas is $0.89/L, compared to regular which recently dropped to $1.429/L.
But remember that one L of autogas won't get you as far as a L of regular.

Where are these 'cheap' conversion kits you refer too?

And considering we're in Victoria, that's going to be a hell of a lot higher than most other places in North America. (I did a double-take when I saw what you said the price recently went down to because it seemed quite familiar!)

[rmay635703]

To chime in here, in the good OL USA you need a registered, licensed installer to do an CNG conversion which is over $10k for most plus the pumping costs.

Generally however equivalent to a gallon of gasoline CNG here in the us including pumping costs goes from $.90 a gallon in Utah and out west (gas equiv) to about $2.50 depending on where you live.

Sadly the $800 including installation Mexican conversion specials are illegal here in the states except I have noticed that the law specifically saws a registered installer on all OBDII (whatever that thing is) vehicles so does that mean I can use a non-registered installer on old carburated crapola I have laying around?

[frodus]

I was gonna say the same thing rmay...

gotta have a licensed installer AND you have to have an emissions approved conversion kit for your specific vehicle.... sounds like lots of red tape.... wonder why?

Well, at least the infrastructure is here. 90+% of all the NG in the US is FROM THE US! thats great. It'l be nice in a few years, when gas starts to run out, we tap into NG and convert existing cars.

Its got a great output per gallon too.

[MPaulHolmes]

I like the idea of SatanicMechanic of getting a bunch of CNG for "home use". So, It's expensive to install just a big tank at your house? And can you just transfer from the big tank to the car's tank pretty safely? Why would anyone mention that a car is CNG powered? My EV is just a "regular car" as far as the insurance in concerned, and no-one seems to know the difference.

Is it hard to convert an old car to CNG? That way, there may be no emissions requirement. But where I live there aren't any emissions issues anyway. I had no idea that a regular car could be so easily converted to CNG. I thought it would be a major engine change.

[SuperTrooper]

Transfer of CNG or propane requires a compressor.

When my in-laws owned a campground they had a propane refill station. F-I-L installed a propane conversion kit on his new 1978 Chevy C20 that could be swapped from gas to propane with a switch and a couple of valves. Once gas got cheap again he stopped using the propane. I don't know what happened to the truck.

[SatanicMechanic]

SuperTrooper is correct about the compressor, but if the propane tank on the vehicle is empty, the larger source tank will fill it depending on how full the source is. Tank equalization.
Let me tell you guys about my friend with the propane powered truck in high school. In the back of his truck he had a bike. If he ran out of propane, which he did usually at night, he would go combing the neighborhood for gas grills. When he found one, he would take the 5 gallon tank, connect it to the empty tank and take out as much as he could. He would take the empty 5 gallon tank and throw it back on yard of where he found it. Sometimes he would slip $5 with the tank but a lot of times he didn't.
He could not do this trick in winter since propane doesn't want to flow when it is freezing. One trick his dad found out was if you turned the 5 gallon tank upside down, wrapped a warm towel around it and it will flow.

[MPaulHolmes]

Originally Posted by blackjackel

My question is, what is the cost of propane or natural gas? I have no clue...

In Tacoma, WA, sort of near my house there's a CNG fueling station. It costs $2.89/gallon equivalent (equivalent to gasoline for distance traveled???). Or is it per gallon at like 3000 psi, or what. I don't get it.

[rmay635703]

Originally Posted by MPaulHolmes

In Tacoma, WA, sort of near my house there's a CNG fueling station. It costs $2.89/gallon equivalent (equivalent to gasoline for distance traveled???). Or is it per gallon at like 3000 psi, or what. I don't get it.

Generally they charge you per equivalent to a gallon of gas, otherwise it would say FT^3

You should note that because CNG is generally not well researched by most people and that prices vary A LOT from one pumping station to another (much like the overpriced E85 I encounter occasionally) It would be sort of like gas being $4.99 at one place and $2.50 5 miles away.

The best way around this is to get the older faster at home filling stations as the gas is almost always much cheaper at home than through a station. Even with the cost of the "disposable" pump.

gotta have a licensed installer AND you have to have an emissions approved conversion kit for your specific vehicle.... sounds like lots of red tape.... wonder why?.

LoL, is that a joke? the reason is quite obvious, if we got enough normal people to force the issue maybe the reason would start giving up!

Originally Posted by MPaulHolmes

Is it hard to convert an old car to CNG? That way, there may be no emissions requirement. But where I live there aren't any emissions issues anyway. I had no idea that a regular car could be so easily converted to CNG. I thought it would be a major engine change.

No more difficult than propane, just need higher pressure lines and equip and an old car is much easier than a new car because it already has a carburator which is needed for propane or CNG, no fuel injection for you! The motor actually runs exactly the same on gas as it does on gasoline, just much cleaner, no modifications at all except the obvious carburator fractioning setup needed.

As for those $100-$200 kits they are generally big enough to run a lawn mower, maybe a motorcycle if your lucky and also very illegal.

I would think one could buy a used CNG pumping system from someone and install it yourself (as complex as repluming and installing a gas water heater) and buy a used car with CNG already there or a Mexican special and just not talk about it and get away with it.

Main issue though is that you could never fill up with natural gas at a legit station if your car isn't certified and like many things the wrong word to the wrong person at the wrong time might result in a $10k per day fine.

Whats the deal with non EPA conversions? [Archive] - Natural Gas Vehicle Owner Community

We need to work to get the price reduced dramatically and get exposure out there so people know CNG is a legit solution.

[stenson]

I'd like to get my hands on one of those $100-$200 conversion kits. Maybe I missed it in the thread. Do you have a url or a name? The only company i have found so far is CNGoutfitters.com. You can get a kit for $1500-2k. I hear the trick is getting a tank. There are some out there that are not certified, out of China, and some people think you can use a propane 'tank' - that's just asking for a lot of trouble.

I think these Mexican installations could give cng conversions a bad name. They need to be done by certified installers (the above website certifies people as well).

It will be interesting to see how this alternative fuel thing plays out in the next year.

[rmay635703]

Originally Posted by stenson

I think these Mexican installations could give cng conversions a bad name. They need to be done by certified installers (the above website certifies people as well).

It will be interesting to see how this alternative fuel thing plays out in the next year.

I highly doubt the Mexicans who are in MEXICO doing conversion for MEXICANS will give CNG a bad name, just like the Brazillians they have been installing CNG systems for many years, longer than we have in the US.

You should also note that many of the parts they use are identical to the ones used on certified versions in the US (some are actually thicker).

Given that Mexico has more installations than we do and Brazil has us beat by a long shot I would think they are probably giving it a better rep than the restrictive setups here in the states. How often do you hear of a CNG car blowing up in Mexico or Brazil for that matter?

If I could I would have one of my beaters converted in Mexico with the best components they have and install my own compressor here at home. I would be willing to take the risk if I had the resources to drive almost to central america without getting robbed and beat. Some of their systems are more flexable and impressive than what you can get here, they just aren't legal here.

I do NOT believe at all that CNG has to be as expensive as it is in the US, with volume I think the price could easily be dropped by at least a fourth even with the restrictive inspection scheduals, trouble is someone really big has to push for it. CNG is actually a VERY simple system, tanks should not be very expensive since they are just a metal cylinder, ditto on the carburator and lines. Its just shamefull how our country has to treat anything remotely outside the main stream.

Cheers
Ryan

[SuperTrooper]

CNG is the classic chicken-and-the-egg syndrome. Or better yet a Catch-22. People won't buy CNG cars without an infrastructure in place. CNG suppliers won't invest in the distribution infrastructure without more CNG cars to sell to. Congress would have to decide to fund the infrastructure, then it might happen.

[rmay635703]

Originally Posted by SuperTrooper

CNG is the classic chicken-and-the-egg syndrome. Or better yet a Catch-22. People won't buy CNG cars without an infrastructure in place. CNG suppliers won't invest in the distribution infrastructure without more CNG cars to sell to. Congress would have to decide to fund the infrastructure, then it might happen.

Yes it is like the chicken and the egg but for different reasons, not infastructure but simple awareness that it is an option.

All CNG folks I have met have dual fuel and the infastructure is in most peoples homes already (at least in town and city) There are a lot of people interested even with the %%%% price for an in home unit but because there is so little exposure there isn't the demand there would be should a nationwide campaign toute it. In fact if you want a legit system with all the costs it is downright frustrating to go through the red tape to get it on, your local housing commission or neighborhood board can determine if you can have one in your house or on your property. This kind of BS is what really turns people off. That and the companies that sell systems commonly are downright disinterested in installation their systems, never could figure out how they are in business without wanting to sell anything.

The main issue though for a huge response beyond hobbiests again is price and without the knowlege there won't be the demand to make the price of equip come down. Nice chicken and the egg. But again even at current demand the price would not have to be anywhere near where it is now; should some relatively minor changes be made for certification. It doesn't need to cost the amount it does to get certified, much like effective crash tests could be done for much less money to allow for smaller car companies to come in the picture.

Such is the world we live in, only mainstream is OK all others will be taxed and regulated out of existance.

[bacardiboi]

living in the great red state of texas, where oil is the blood of the economy, its my firm opinion that anything that can reduce or eliminate this nations dependency on expensive oil ( CNG ) will be bought out by the oil companies.

then they will raise the price to near or above the price of gasoline to discourage usage, and once again, the cheapest option is paying 4.00 per gallon for gasoline. they already did it with ethanol, which is only .20 cents cheaper than gasoline in my neighborhood, and at 10-12 mpg in my taurus on ethanol, it then becomes more expensive than gasoline.

if CNG becomes popular enough i fear the oil companies will dip into their never ending depths of wealth, buy out the natural gas companies, place a surcharge or tax on each gallon equivalent of CNG, and raise the price of natural gas in our homes to make at home filling as or more expensive than filling in their taxed filling stations.

then -- given the cost of converting, to save little to no money at the pump, the majority of americans will say "#### that, (insert blasphemous rumor about inefficiency or danger of cng powered cars here), ill keep my hummer running on gasoline!!"

oil companies have a monopoly over us, and to make things worse they have enough money to buy out our alternative fuels, and enough power to force legislation enacting a web of red tape keeping us from cheaper, more eco- friendly fuel options.

the united states isnt just dependent on oil, its run by the people who depend on our oil dependency to keep rich!

call me a conspirist, but this is what i believe

[sweethe]

Originally Posted by carwaterguide

Even the Water Fuel Conversion Kits - How Using Water As Fuel Helps Cut Your Gas Consumption Recently,there is increased awareness among many drivers of a technology that uses plain water tosupplement the cars' gasoline consumption. Called a water fuel conversion kit, it is a simpleadd-on to your current car engine that uses your car battery to carry out an electrolysis on water to produce Hydroxy gas (HHO). This Hydroxy gas is used to supplement the burning ofgasoline in the car's engine.You can truly get better mileage ......carwaterguide.blogspot.com

Hydrogen generator kit for car can be better than gasoline or oil additives to raise gas mileage. When you make or do it on your own, you can save money on gas but will save lots of dollars on the kit and reproduce the system for other automobiles on your own.

Have you tried this on your vehicle? If so what was the outcome?
I have read that this is a fraud in articles but who knows if it is just dis-info from the oil companies. If anyone has tried this please tell us if and how well it worked.

[trebuchet03]

Originally Posted by sweethe

Have you tried this on your vehicle? If so what was the outcome?
I have read that this is a fraud in articles but who knows if it is just dis-info from the oil companies. If anyone has tried this please tell us if and how well it worked.

I doubt it's disinformation from oil companies.

Here's a fairly good write up from someone in industry
Fuel saving gadgets - a professional engineer's view