Are Small Cars Too Expensive?

[SVOboy]

Currently in the US market there are a few types of people looking for small, fuel efficient cars. Traditionally, those people have been the types to wait in long lines for Smart ForTwo tests drives and Prius ownership: the treehuggers (of which I am a part, so I say it with love). With gas prices [...]

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[jamesqf]

Got to take exception to one point: the Prius is not a small car, it's a mid-size sedan.

There are other points that could be discussed. For instance, it could just as well be argued that small and fuel-efficient cars are also too cheap (at least until you get into Porsche territory). For some of us it's not about wanting to spend less money on gas, it's about wanting to burn less gas.

[Clev]

The 1976 Toyota Corolla retailed for $2,789 ($10,054 in 2007 dollars.) It had a 4-speed manual transmission, no passenger mirror and power nothing. For about $1,000 more, the Yaris has a nicer interior, more powerful engine, ABS, front and side airbags, A/C, power tilt steering, tire pressure monitoring, an engine that actually starts on cold mornings and far better gas mileage. (My '77 got about 25 mpg.)

I'd say we're not doing too bad.

[feddup]

It depends on how you want to look at it. My 08 Honda Fit cost $16,105 but the last time I checked Kelly Blue Book it was worth about 17.6K with 8K miles on it. I get just under 40 MPG with conservative driving, it handles superbly, power everything and I can put an appliance like a clothes dryer in the back. Yeah 16K is steep for an econobox but people are amazed that it feels like a Mercedes inside. Time has moved on and you get what you pay for. If you're careful and view your car purchase like an investment then your long term costs can be minimized.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by feddup

Yeah 16K is steep for an econobox...

And there's the whole problem: the automatic assumption that because a car is small & fuel efficient, it's therefore one of those despised "econoboxes". Wouldn't it be a good idea to follow the example of the computer world? A notebook computer costs more than a desktop, even though it's smaller and uses less power - and a really lightweight & low power notebook costs even more than an average one :-)

[Clev]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

And there's the whole problem: the automatic assumption that because a car is small & fuel efficient, it's therefore one of those despised "econoboxes". Wouldn't it be a good idea to follow the example of the computer world? A notebook computer costs more than a desktop, even though it's smaller and uses less power - and a really lightweight & low power notebook costs even more than an average one :-)

Not quite the same thing. If you were trying to cram 8 seats and the horsepower of a V8 into an econobox, it would be more apt. However, with the exception of hybrid drivetrains, everything else has been scaled down equivalently. The cost of a 2,500 pound car should be about half the cost of a 5,000 pound car, all other things being equal.

The econobox vs. SUV debate would be more like the difference between a Proliant server and a Shuttle. The Proliant is fine for its intended mission, but you wouldn't use it for day-to-day word processing (unless you also need a space heater for your computer room.)

[feddup]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

And there's the whole problem: the automatic assumption that because a car is small & fuel efficient, it's therefore one of those despised "econoboxes".

I think I've been misinterpreted. I love little cars. The fit maneuvers like a wicked comfy go kart. I love my econobox. That car is tight and well built. Like any category you can have a fine econobox or a crappy one.

I agree with clev that a 2500 lb car should be LESS than a 5000 lb car but certainly not 50% less. The market doesn't work that way. By the way the fit can hold 90 cu/ft of stuff and can substitute, quite often, for SUVs and minivans. It's rated for 5 people but in my opinion one of them better have an eating disorder. It can hold 4 VERY large people in comfort however.

[Duffman]

Originally Posted by Clev

NotThe cost of a 2,500 pound car should be about half the cost of a 5,000 pound car, all other things being equal.

This is one giant leap of an assumption you have made there. In reality the cost of materials to manufacture the car should cost about half. The labour to assemble the car will be a lot closer to being exactly the same than it will be proportional to the weight differences of the two. To illustrate, are there any more wheels, hoods, hood latches, dash assemblies, bumpers, driving controls, suspension components, fuel systems, exhaust components.......... to install on a large car then on a small one?

On an aside, IMO this is why the big three have turned away from the small car market. UAW contracts have pushed up thier labor costs to a point where they can not compete with foreign makes on small cars because small cars have a higher ratio of labour in the total cost of the car.

[feddup]

Originally Posted by Duffman

This is one giant leap of an assumption you have made there. In reality the cost of materials to manufacture the car should cost about half. The labour to assemble the car will be a lot closer to being exactly the same than it will be proportional to the weight differences of the two. To illustrate, are there any more wheels, hoods, hood latches, dash assemblies, bumpers, driving controls, suspension components, fuel systems, exhaust components.......... to install on a large car then on a small one?

On an aside, IMO this is why the big three have turned away from the small car market. UAW contracts have pushed up thier labor costs to a point where they can not compete with foreign makes on small cars because small cars have a higher ratio of labour in the total cost of the car.

It's hard to get around that "pounds of car/$" mentality. I guess a 1978 Eldorado ought to be the finest automobile made. It is if you're selling it for scrap. Americans need to embrace more of a bicycler mindset. Lighter is better. I was a little disillusioned when I found out the fit weighs almost 2500 lb. I owned a rabbit GTI that was under 2000. By the way the fit never squeaks, creaks or rattles and the rabbit did all of the above. Did Honda use those extra 500 lbs to increase structural stability? Hell yes! In laptops, MP3 players and cars you're going to pay more to shrink the same tech into a smaller package.

[Frank Lee]

ALL new vehicles are too expensive. God bless everyone who works their tails off to get 'em though... ensures a steady supply of cheap/free good used cars for me!

[Frank Lee]

The Cheapest Cars in the World - Asylum | Men's Lifestyle | Humor, weird news, sex tips, fashion, dating, food and gadgets

cheap stuff from around the world!

[MechEngVT]

Mostly you guys are comparing apples to oranges and arbitrarily assigning relative prices based on weight. The material cost for a 2500lb car are not in any way related to the material cost from a 5000lb car. Just because there is less of "something" doesn't mean that the "something" it does have costs the same as the "something" that something else has twice as much of. Think of the Lotus philosophy of "Adding Lightness." The weight that their vehicles lack adds a cost. The cost of their vehicles is therefore no longer in proportion to the vehicles' weight because the avoided weight itself has value.

A 2500 lb car is more likely to have an aluminum block engine, whereas a 5000 lb car (more likely an SUV or truck) would likely have an iron block engine. Pound-for-pound, aluminum costs more. Getting into Lotuses (Loti?), the carbon fiber that they may use costs much more than even aluminum.

Laptops and MP3 players are a good analogy but not because people pay more for smaller, because they DO NOT always pay more for smaller. The most expensive MP3 players cost 2-3 times as much as the smaller ones. Larger ones have moving parts and an operating hard drive compared to the smaller-capacity flash memory. People pay more for a larger package that does more. Same with cars, the device is worthwhile because of what it does. Value is assigned when determining the price that the function will support. With MP3 players storage, screen size, and other features have more value (and a higher price) than shrinking them. With cars seating capacity, comfort, gizmos, and safety ratings are more important than shrinking the cars. Automakers, especially Japanese ones, are pretty good at analyzing the value content of their products and spending money in the right places. This is why cars weigh more - it would cost too much and matter too little to reduce the weight. People will pay a small amount for phenomenal fuel savings, but to reduce weight to achieve noteworthy savings would be extremely expensive.

The reality is that small cars are too expensive because I can not financially justify buying a different vehicle solely to save gas. With me, and the VAST majority of people in the world, it *IS* about paying less for gas. I don't care how much gas I burn. I care how much cash I burn. Buying a car with better fuel economy isn't worth the money it would take to save money.

[cfg83]

Originally Posted by MechEngVT

...

The reality is that small cars are too expensive because I can not financially justify buying a different vehicle solely to save gas. With me, and the VAST majority of people in the world, it *IS* about paying less for gas. I don't care how much gas I burn. I care how much cash I burn. Buying a car with better fuel economy isn't worth the money it would take to save money.

I understand that POV. Let's say for the point of argument that the car had 4-5 star crash standards, but it came with :

- roll-up windows
- AC extra
- manual steering
- front disk/rear drum/ABS extra
- crash bags extra

If all of that brought the price down, would it be more justifiable to you?

I am trying to define a "no frills" car combined with today's crash engineering.

CarloSW2

[Bicycle Bob]

Price has more to do with the number and precision of the manufacturing operations than the size of the parts. Small and simple will be cheapest. Someday soon, North Americans may discover what Central Americans have known for decades. It is better to share a bouncing, crowded School Bus with livestock than to stay home or walk.

[Blister]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

ALL new vehicles are too expensive. God bless everyone who works their tails off to get 'em though... ensures a steady supply of cheap/free good used cars for me!

I agree. All new vehicles are too expensive. I would gladly purchase one of the sippers vs. a guzzler any day but just aren't able.

I would also sacrifice power steering, air condition and any electronics not needed to start and drive the vehicle.

[Blister]

Originally Posted by feddup

It depends on how you want to look at it. My 08 Honda Fit cost $16,105 but the last time I checked Kelly Blue Book it was worth about 17.6K with 8K miles on it. I get just under 40 MPG with conservative driving, it handles superbly, power everything and I can put an appliance like a clothes dryer in the back. Yeah 16K is steep for an econobox but people are amazed that it feels like a Mercedes inside. Time has moved on and you get what you pay for. If you're careful and view your car purchase like an investment then your long term costs can be minimized.

Here's a little something on the Honda Fit I found interesting. It probably applies to the prius thread stating that sales were minute here in the U.S..

For 2006, 27,934 Fits were sold in the United States. 45,953 units were sold between January 2007 and October 2007. A total of 73,887 Fits have been sold in the U.S. since its introduction in April 2006 through October 2007. Due to high demand, Fits are in short supply and it has been reported that many dealers have been selling above MSRP.[8][9]

The 2008 Fit is largely unchanged from the 2007 with the exception of the TPMS and new windshield wipers that abandon the large rubber blade design to a more traditional rigid plastic with thin rubber blade design. MSRP has also increased roughly US$100.

Honda Fit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So, while some were working overtime to make out the U.S. as a bunch of overweight gas guzzlers, auto suppliers weren't actually supplying cars that were in demand, causing their costs rise... Interesting, very interesting. Somehow I doubt that the total price jackup was limited to the $100 dollar range.

I also failed to find another country that was having a "shortage" on Honda Fits. Looks like a set-up to me.

[Binger]

My wife and I prefer to haul our son around in her Kia Spectra Vs my Mirage...15 years of engineering makes a huge difference in safety. However the kia once you throw a baby seat in back just does not feel that big. I have to move the seat forward to an uncomfortable position to keep the baby seat from geting pushed back to the wrong angle.

We would like to get something bigger once we pay off the spectra. However theres always that trade off in economy once you go up to a bigger vehicle. Yet my wifes car only averages out to 25 mpg...so we in all honesty could probably go up to a new tarus and not see that much of a difference in our over all fuel expenses.

While I'm on that those of you who may need a new car soon start looking now. We had to make a rush decision on buying a car and we really wish we had not bought this kia. Its been a great car but the fuel economy is not what we had hopped for.