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Old 03-18-2008, 09:06 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Big Dave View Post
If you fell as you do, Lost Cause, why are you here? Anything done to improve efficiency acts to defeat your agenda.
If gasoline was free, I'd still hypermile to the best of my ability. I am affected when gas goes up and the economy falters. It is true that I live such an ascetic life that I wouldn't be as affected as most, but I am as reliant on the economy as the average citizen.

It is just a philosophical path I've chosen to follow: take what I need, leave what I don't. It's a hell of a balancing act that requires self-honesty, but I like a challenge...

I like to believe I'm not one to force my ideals on others, but I think it would be for humanity's benefit if the costs of things were put into perspective.

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Old 03-18-2008, 11:24 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Smile

the best cure for high prices is high prices
i know that price rationing will sway the non-ecomodders.

the low pH rain in Vt. didn't come from wood stoves, it came from somewhere else.

wars use a lot of diesel fuel

i conserve because that is the way i have always been.

Last edited by diesel_john; 03-19-2008 at 12:19 AM..
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Old 03-19-2008, 12:20 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Thanks EPA

I can breathe a little easier today with all these new people on the road spewing out more crap reducing my human thermal efficiency
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Old 03-19-2008, 01:17 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LostCause View Post

I think I'm a strange American in those regards, though. I'll breathe a sigh of relief when the United States no longer holds the title of biggest GDP. I see that quality becoming more of a liability than an honor.

- LostCause
You're not alone And does big GDP really mean quality? Rather, is quality a feature of a high GDP - especially for a primarily service based economy... Or am I just reading too far into those couple sentences

In any case, I've been saying it for awhile.... We have the ability to regulate ourselves... We can do that, or let nature do it. It doesn't matter who does it - but it's going to happen. The major difference is, the nature option isn't a pleasant one...
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Old 03-19-2008, 03:51 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Duffman View Post
Hate to burst your bubble but in Canada ALL ON ROAD DIESEL since mid 2006 has been ULSD, we have not had the option. All last summer diesel was around $0.15/L cheaper than gas (thats $0.57/US Gal). We are now taking the same **** kicking that you Yanks are on diesel (we did the winter before too). We are just in a odd swing where diesel is unnaturally high, a similar situation happened back in 2002 as well.
I'm glad we have ULSD, especially if the goal is to make clean-diesel viable in the USA. If we want to have *more* diesel engines running around, I think clean diesel is the way to go.

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Old 03-19-2008, 10:45 AM   #16 (permalink)
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My only complaint is the price spread, I have no issue with 5~7$ a gallon Diesel as long as Gasoline is Similar in price.

My "theory" Lots of Manufacturers ( Honda, Ford, VW +++) are introducing new Diesels this year (saves lots of fuel!!) but Oil companies love gasoline and love SUV's; so run up the price of Diesel and people will stick to their SUV's.

Rant # 2
How about emissions rated as per mile traveled? I know my 50+ MPG TDI isn't polluting as much as the LEV rated V10 (5~7 mpg) Excursion 4x4 my neighbor drives.
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Old 03-19-2008, 10:56 AM   #17 (permalink)
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My only complaint is the price spread, I have no issue with 5~7$ a gallon Diesel as long as Gasoline is Similar in price.

My "theory" Lots of Manufacturers ( Honda, Ford, VW +++) are introducing new Diesels this year (saves lots of fuel!!) but Oil companies love gasoline and love SUV's; so run up the price of Diesel and people will stick to their SUV's.
Naw, this happens every winter... Diesel is very similar to heating oil. So in the winter, demand goes way up while supply doesn't change too much due to refinery capacity (also keep in mind that only a certain amount of diesel comes out of a barrel of oil - they can't just make it all diesel).

In the summer, gasoline prices will go up and diesel prices will come down a little... But perhaps not much if the value of the dollar goes down...

Diesel


Gasoline


It's not collusion - it's economy. Print more money, drop the fed, etc... inflation goes up, value of dollar sinks but the value of resources remains constant - so we pay "more." We're not paying any more (value wise) than we were - we just don't have the value....

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Old 03-19-2008, 06:03 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Well, we all make our own value judgments (mine is MPG uber alles), but ULSD/Tier II better show a noticeable improvement in air quality and public health or there will be a backlash. You cannot expect to impose such a huge economic penalty without seeing a proportional benefit or people will start asking: “Is it worth it?” This will be like the failure of the Montreal Protocol, but writ very large and affecting a very large number of people.

In the face of the best ambient air quality in living memory, it will be very difficult for anybody to show any improvement at all from these regs.
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Old 03-19-2008, 08:33 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trebuchet03
You're not alone And does big GDP really mean quality? Rather, is quality a feature of a high GDP - especially for a primarily service based economy... Or am I just reading too far into those couple sentences

In any case, I've been saying it for awhile.... We have the ability to regulate ourselves... We can do that, or let nature do it. It doesn't matter who does it - but it's going to happen. The major difference is, the nature option isn't a pleasant one...
I meant quality as in a characteristic/feature (i.e. a quality of this wound is gangrene).

Using the whole "means/ends" analogy, I think the GDP is a means that became accepted as an ends. Logically, the ends should be human well-being. Ofcourse, that is hard to define. While material possessions seem to be an aspect of human well-being, I think most could tell you it isn't the only component. So...why do we treat it that way?

As far as self-regulation, I don't think any path will be particularly pleasant. Try to get any "king" to live like a "commoner," most won't go without a fight. But you are right, I bet Nature will be particularly unpleasant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Dave
Well, we all make our own value judgments (mine is MPG uber alles), but ULSD/Tier II better show a noticeable improvement in air quality and public health or there will be a backlash. You cannot expect to impose such a huge economic penalty without seeing a proportional benefit or people will start asking: “Is it worth it?” This will be like the failure of the Montreal Protocol, but writ very large and affecting a very large number of people.

In the face of the best ambient air quality in living memory, it will be very difficult for anybody to show any improvement at all from these regs.
I see it as an analogy. Two different areas of the nation, each with a lake and a pay-outhouse.
Area 1, with 250 people, will easily agree defecating into the lake is better then spending their hard-earned salary on a pay-toilet.

Area 2, with 14 million people, will easily agree defecating into the late is a bad idea compared to spending 25 cents for sanitation.
As America's population grows, I see us approxiamating Area 2. In that respect, I support clean diesel. I'd be pissed if my ancestors left me a cesspool because they lived purely for themselves. I'm sure people in the future will be mad at the way I lived, and I'm arguing in their favor.

Also, while the air quality may be the "best" it has been it recent memory, it still downright sucks. I can see brown skies outside my window now. I remember as a kid staying in class all day because the air was too bad. Didn't Bush recently talk about the war on pollution? Oh that's right:




Montreal Protocol
I don't want to knock this off on a tangent, but when was the Montreal Protocol a failure?

Small economic hit to ban CFC's, stabilize the ozone layer, and prevent thousands of medical cases of skin cancer/cataracts a year. Sounds like a nice investment to me. Not to mention ozone thinning was occuring over some areas least responsible for its cause.

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Old 03-19-2008, 10:07 PM   #20 (permalink)
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The Montreal Protocol got to be a failure when it imposed huge costs and failed to reduce the ozone hole.

When you banned the CFCs you also forced people to replace their refrigeration equipment. This imposed a cost of hundreds of billions of dollars. The equipment that uses CFC substitutes is not as efficient, thus causing an increase in electrical power consumption. Likewise the A/C in you car uses R-134a and is 11% less efficient than R-12 machine that preceded it. Hence your MPG is lower with the R-134a machine than the R-12 machine.

The ozone hole has not decreased in size one iota. This treaty has been in place for twenty years and nothing positve has come of it.

If that ain't a failure, just what is?

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