World's first hybrid - Porsche Semper Vivus

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

Motors are motors, and transmissions are not motors. The transmission is not a power source.

But neither is the motor/generator in a standard diesel-electric locomotive a power source or storage of any kind. It serves exactly the same function as the gears in a manual transmission, or the hydraulics in an automatic, simply transmiting power from engine to wheels while allowing the rotation speed of each to vary.

[roflwaffle]

Edit- NVM, dumb mistake on my part

[NeilBlanchard]

Power source is not the same thing as an energy source. And engine or a motor is a power source. Fuel or electricity is an energy source.

Two different types of power sources, combined in some fashion i.e. hybridized is the definition of a hybrid.

In a standard Prius (not a plugin) even the regenerative braking energy came originally from the gasoline burned earlier. So, if your definition of a hybrid (two different energy sources) is correct, then how is a Prius a hybrid?

The original Porsche was a series (aka serial) hybrid and all the energy in the batteries came from the engine. And a Prius is a parallel / series hybrid, since it can operate in EV (using energy put in the batter by the ICE and/or regen), ICE, and combined, too.

[dcb]

Not doubting you rofl, but can you provide a link to what you are referring to?

It sounds like confirmation of the inefficiency of electric regen on the surface though (soaks up plenty of braking energy but doesn't return much of it).

Either way, it is the rechargeable nature of the battery (or the accumulator) what makes a hybrid useful and not just a very lossy transmission (aka generator/pump running a motor).

The original porsche had batteries.

[roflwaffle]

You should be doubting me, was off by an order of magnitude in the calculation! I used 1300N instead of 13000N for the weight of a 3000lb car. It looks like it's about half the mileage increase on the city cycle with the other half coming from operating only at high load and engine stop/start.

[dcb]

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

...In a standard Prius (not a plugin) even the regenerative braking energy came originally from the gasoline burned earlier. So, if your definition of a hybrid (two different energy sources) is correct, then how is a Prius a hybrid?...

Well a train without batteries doesn't recapture and store that braking energy, or otherwise allow the vehicle to move without the diesel engine being on. If you take the batteries out, then a series hybrid is not a hybrid anymore, it is an electric version of a torque converter, instead of a pump and a motor you have a generator and a motor.

The storing of energy allows more efficient (hybrid) energy management schemes, and not just losses from weird transmissions.

[Joenavy85]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

No, it's just the opposite of a diesel-electric train, where the electric motor/generator is only acting as a transmission.

Diesel runs a generator, generator powers AC induction motors, and also charges a battery bank. EDIT: foot inserted into mouth, i was thinking of the new GE Evolution Locomotives.

(If trains are hybrids, then so is every car with an automatic transmission a hydraulic hybrid :-)) The Porsche design had both batteries and an IC engine.

that's a very long stretch since the Locomotives use Hydraulic motors instead of viscous fluid clutches, but yes you would technically be correct

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by Joenavy85

that's a very long stretch since the Locomotives use Hydraulic motors instead of viscous fluid clutches, but yes you would technically be correct

Back when I was logging, we used to use rough-terrain forklifts that had a diesel engine driving hydraulic motors that turned the wheels.

[roflwaffle]

Originally Posted by dcb

Not doubting you rofl, but can you provide a link to what you are referring to?

It sounds like confirmation of the inefficiency of electric regen on the surface though (soaks up plenty of braking energy but doesn't return much of it).

Either way, it is the rechargeable nature of the battery (or the accumulator) what makes a hybrid useful and not just a very lossy transmission (aka generator/pump running a motor).

The original porsche had batteries.

Wait, I take back my take back! I was using force instead of mass, so while a Prius does have ~13000N of force it only weighs ~1300kg. 25 or so stops from ~11m/s (my guesstimate for the average speed to a stop on the FTP-72) is ~2 million Joules or ~.55kWh worth of energy. I figure round trip efficiency is only ~50%, so that's a contribution of ~.28kWh of energy, which would ordinarily take ~.84kWh of gasoline. The car uses ~7.7kWh of gasoline, so regen probably improves efficiency by ~10+%..

[ATaylorRacing]

I think the William Arnold & Sons 1897 car was the first. On the bottom of page 13 of this link it states...."William Arnold & Sons built Benz-like cars with their own 1.5 hp engines. One was fitted with the first electric self-start dynamotor, which also assisted the engine on hills."
Pioneer Vehicles for Car the Definitive Visual History of the Automobile
The single cylinder motor was ONLY 1,190 cc and the car would run 16 mph