2016 Toyota Prius (photos, specifications, Cd 0.24)

[sendler]

Originally Posted by oldtamiyaphile

I think you're trolling.

I think you are the one with the blinders on. Your calculator that you posted already shows that for NY, the carbon emissions for a Leaf is 40% less than a Prius. And the world has barely even started trying. It will get better and better now that we have become painfully aware of our past mistakes. The Prius is a great intermediate step for now but we need to keep going and you are not helping. You can multiply fractions and bench race where the power came from all day long but when the rubber hits the road, an EV drive train is 250% more efficient than the best ICE car.

[oldtamiyaphile]

As stated earlier, the numbers depend on how clean the grid is where you live.

Retry the experiment for someone who lives in Delaware...

I also ran the numbers for Neil B in MA, he'd be 25% 'cleaner' with a Prius.

If you leave the state blank you get the grid national average, the Prius still wins on that basis.

There's no point buying an EV today in the hope that the grid will get cleaner, the clean grid has to come first or you're just making another mistake. Replacing oil with coal is like replacing cyanide with arsenic.

So by challenging the easily disproved idea that EV are always 123444$355% better than ICE I am helping. You're welcome

[sendler]

Adopting early is the impetus for a change in the right direction. It takes decades to rebuild infrastructure. We need to start learning how to do it better now. I am stuck with an ICE motorcycle at 94 MPG for right now but have the parts for for a fast e bike commuter. The target is 40 Wh/ mile at 40 mph for about 840 MPGe. And now that they have dropped the price, my next highway capable commuter will be a ZERO S which with full streamlining has shown to bring 290 MPGe at 70 mph.

[oldtamiyaphile]

Early adopting is all well and good, but if buying an EV means putting out 230% more CO2 while the infrastructure catches up, the price is too high IMO (if the number are closer you could justify it on ideological grounds). If the infrastructure is already in place where you live, good for you

In my case my ICE only Fiat is cleaner than any EV (even my work van is only 12% worse), I won't be switching any time soon, I'll let the cleaner countries lead the way.

[sendler]

Well, thanks for showing me that I am 40% cleaner with an EV if I switch today. Now I am all over the new technology more than ever.

[California98Civic]

Originally Posted by sendler

Well, thanks for showing me that I am 40% cleaner with an EV if I switch today. Now I am all over the new technology more than ever.

Yeah, I sorta concluded that my black & green civic is my last ICE, if I can time the replacement to my liking. Right now a first gen Volt, Focus, or Leaf would be my lead candidates, since they all seem to have sold well and ar beginning to appear on the jsed market with large chuncks of their depreciation reflected in the pricing.

The grid here ks more than clean enough: a 2012 EV gives out less than half the CO2 of the best new 2016 Eco trim Prius at a third the sticker price (and its cheaper to fuel).

EDIT: sorry I just noticed how off topic we're getting.

[sendler]

Originally Posted by California98Civic

I just noticed how off topic we're getting.

Just have to keep it real sometimes. This is important stuff.

[planetaire]

Originally Posted by oldtamiyaphile

...The US grid is 90% efficient, your charger is 90% efficient, the batteries under charge are 80% efficient, the batteries under discharge are 80% efficient, the inverter is 90% efficient, and the motor is 80-90% efficient. As high as each of those number is, those small inefficiencies do add up. You get 37% based on those numbers.

Even if you use best case scenarios (these numbers don't exists outside a lab as inverters/chargers/motors are most efficient under load while batteries are least efficient under those loads) of 90%, 95%, 90%, 90%, 95%, 90%. The EV is only 60% efficient. The Prius ICE is 40% efficient but that doesn't include energy recaptured via braking....

Sorry, no, the ev efficient is not 60%.

My last charger have 96% efficienty
My Lithium cells have about 7% losts in charging/decharging
Inverter and motor have more then 90% efficienty except at low speed or low power.
So efficienty from the plug to the transaxle is more then 80% (0.96*0.93*0.90)

A prius have losts between the engine and the output of the transaxle where is connected MG2: a part of the energy go via gears, and the rest via MG1+inverter+MG2. So 40% is the engine alone. Global efficienty depend most upon the % of electrical path. Hypermilers are able to find some sweet spot where the losts are only 5-10%. But at low speed and at hight power the losts are really more. At low power the engine don't have 40% efficiency. When engine is cold it is also true.


Unlike I have read a prius plug-in can be more efficient then a non plug-in.
One of the reasons are the cells; They have much less internal resistance. So better efficiency. During a longer time, there is less need to derate them. May be except in very cold weather.
One other reason is that the factory nimh battery is small and you can have more energy to regen then it is abble to get.
So being more heavy because heavier battery is not necessary bad efficiency.

Here, in France, driving a prius plugin in ev mode release much less CO² and is much less expensive. But this depend upon your country. You may have solar cells ...

[oldtamiyaphile]

Originally Posted by planetaire

Here, in France, driving a prius plugin in ev mode release much less CO² and is much less expensive. But this depend upon your country. You may have solar cells ...

Valid points. I think the G4 ECO with Lithium pack might fix the regen/ charge efficiency issue, to be on par with a plug in.

I do have solar cells, but EVs are charged at home over night, when PV arrays don't work. At any rate you have to live in a mansion to have enough north/south (as appropriate) aspect to meet your household needs and charge an EV.

[redpoint5]

All of this talk about well to wheels is besides the point (and the topic of this thread).

It currently costs me $0.04 per mile on gasoline and $0.02 per mile on electricity. Since it's cheaper to drive on electricity, it's in my economic interest to plug in as much as possible. My electricity is mostly hydro generated, and cheaper than most anywhere else in the world.

Generally speaking, when things cost less, they also consume less resources.

I'm going to make purchasing decisions based on what is in my economic interest. Financial decisions have an enormous impact on me, yet close to zero impact on the environment, especially with respect to the quality of life to other humans.