Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > Hybrids
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 01-06-2016, 10:21 AM   #171 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
sendler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Syracuse, NY USA
Posts: 2,935

Honda CBR250R FI Single - '11 Honda CBR250R
90 day: 105.14 mpg (US)

2001 Honda Insight stick - '01 Honda Insight manual
90 day: 60.68 mpg (US)

2009 Honda Fit auto - '09 Honda Fit Auto
90 day: 38.51 mpg (US)

PCX153 - '13 Honda PCX150
90 day: 104.48 mpg (US)

2015 Yamaha R3 - '15 Yamaha R3
90 day: 80.94 mpg (US)

Ninja650 - '19 Kawasaki Ninja 650
90 day: 72.57 mpg (US)
Thanks: 326
Thanked 1,315 Times in 968 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldtamiyaphile View Post
I think you're trolling.
I think you are the one with the blinders on. Your calculator that you posted already shows that for NY, the carbon emissions for a Leaf is 40% less than a Prius. And the world has barely even started trying. It will get better and better now that we have become painfully aware of our past mistakes. The Prius is a great intermediate step for now but we need to keep going and you are not helping. You can multiply fractions and bench race where the power came from all day long but when the rubber hits the road, an EV drive train is 250% more efficient than the best ICE car.

  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 01-06-2016, 10:29 AM   #172 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
oldtamiyaphile's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,510

UFI - '12 Fiat 500 Twinair
Team Turbocharged!
90 day: 40.3 mpg (US)

Jeep - '05 Jeep Wrangler Renegade
90 day: 18.09 mpg (US)

R32 - '89 Nissan Skyline

STiG - '16 Renault Trafic 140dCi Energy
90 day: 30.12 mpg (US)

Prius - '05 Toyota Prius
Team Toyota
90 day: 50.25 mpg (US)

Premodded - '49 Ford Freighter
90 day: 13.48 mpg (US)

F-117 - '10 Proton Arena GLSi
Pickups
Mitsubishi
90 day: 37.82 mpg (US)

Ralica - '85 Toyota Celica ST
90 day: 25.23 mpg (US)

Sx4 - '07 Suzuki Sx4
90 day: 32.21 mpg (US)

F-117 (2) - '03 Citroen Xsara VTS
90 day: 30.06 mpg (US)
Thanks: 325
Thanked 452 Times in 319 Posts
As stated earlier, the numbers depend on how clean the grid is where you live.

Retry the experiment for someone who lives in Delaware...

I also ran the numbers for Neil B in MA, he'd be 25% 'cleaner' with a Prius.

If you leave the state blank you get the grid national average, the Prius still wins on that basis.

There's no point buying an EV today in the hope that the grid will get cleaner, the clean grid has to come first or you're just making another mistake. Replacing oil with coal is like replacing cyanide with arsenic.

So by challenging the easily disproved idea that EV are always 123444$355% better than ICE I am helping. You're welcome
__________________







Last edited by oldtamiyaphile; 01-06-2016 at 11:37 AM..
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2016, 10:54 AM   #173 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
sendler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Syracuse, NY USA
Posts: 2,935

Honda CBR250R FI Single - '11 Honda CBR250R
90 day: 105.14 mpg (US)

2001 Honda Insight stick - '01 Honda Insight manual
90 day: 60.68 mpg (US)

2009 Honda Fit auto - '09 Honda Fit Auto
90 day: 38.51 mpg (US)

PCX153 - '13 Honda PCX150
90 day: 104.48 mpg (US)

2015 Yamaha R3 - '15 Yamaha R3
90 day: 80.94 mpg (US)

Ninja650 - '19 Kawasaki Ninja 650
90 day: 72.57 mpg (US)
Thanks: 326
Thanked 1,315 Times in 968 Posts
Adopting early is the impetus for a change in the right direction. It takes decades to rebuild infrastructure. We need to start learning how to do it better now. I am stuck with an ICE motorcycle at 94 MPG for right now but have the parts for for a fast e bike commuter. The target is 40 Wh/ mile at 40 mph for about 840 MPGe. And now that they have dropped the price, my next highway capable commuter will be a ZERO S which with full streamlining has shown to bring 290 MPGe at 70 mph.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2016, 11:00 AM   #174 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
oldtamiyaphile's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,510

UFI - '12 Fiat 500 Twinair
Team Turbocharged!
90 day: 40.3 mpg (US)

Jeep - '05 Jeep Wrangler Renegade
90 day: 18.09 mpg (US)

R32 - '89 Nissan Skyline

STiG - '16 Renault Trafic 140dCi Energy
90 day: 30.12 mpg (US)

Prius - '05 Toyota Prius
Team Toyota
90 day: 50.25 mpg (US)

Premodded - '49 Ford Freighter
90 day: 13.48 mpg (US)

F-117 - '10 Proton Arena GLSi
Pickups
Mitsubishi
90 day: 37.82 mpg (US)

Ralica - '85 Toyota Celica ST
90 day: 25.23 mpg (US)

Sx4 - '07 Suzuki Sx4
90 day: 32.21 mpg (US)

F-117 (2) - '03 Citroen Xsara VTS
90 day: 30.06 mpg (US)
Thanks: 325
Thanked 452 Times in 319 Posts
Early adopting is all well and good, but if buying an EV means putting out 230% more CO2 while the infrastructure catches up, the price is too high IMO (if the number are closer you could justify it on ideological grounds). If the infrastructure is already in place where you live, good for you

In my case my ICE only Fiat is cleaner than any EV (even my work van is only 12% worse), I won't be switching any time soon, I'll let the cleaner countries lead the way.
__________________







Last edited by oldtamiyaphile; 01-06-2016 at 11:38 AM..
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2016, 11:09 AM   #175 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
sendler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Syracuse, NY USA
Posts: 2,935

Honda CBR250R FI Single - '11 Honda CBR250R
90 day: 105.14 mpg (US)

2001 Honda Insight stick - '01 Honda Insight manual
90 day: 60.68 mpg (US)

2009 Honda Fit auto - '09 Honda Fit Auto
90 day: 38.51 mpg (US)

PCX153 - '13 Honda PCX150
90 day: 104.48 mpg (US)

2015 Yamaha R3 - '15 Yamaha R3
90 day: 80.94 mpg (US)

Ninja650 - '19 Kawasaki Ninja 650
90 day: 72.57 mpg (US)
Thanks: 326
Thanked 1,315 Times in 968 Posts
Well, thanks for showing me that I am 40% cleaner with an EV if I switch today. Now I am all over the new technology more than ever.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2016, 12:18 PM   #176 (permalink)
Cyborg ECU
 
California98Civic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Coastal Southern California
Posts: 6,299

Black and Green - '98 Honda Civic DX Coupe
Team Honda
90 day: 66.42 mpg (US)

Black and Red - '00 Nashbar Custom built eBike
90 day: 3671.43 mpg (US)
Thanks: 2,373
Thanked 2,172 Times in 1,469 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sendler View Post
Well, thanks for showing me that I am 40% cleaner with an EV if I switch today. Now I am all over the new technology more than ever.
Yeah, I sorta concluded that my black & green civic is my last ICE, if I can time the replacement to my liking. Right now a first gen Volt, Focus, or Leaf would be my lead candidates, since they all seem to have sold well and ar beginning to appear on the jsed market with large chuncks of their depreciation reflected in the pricing.

The grid here ks more than clean enough: a 2012 EV gives out less than half the CO2 of the best new 2016 Eco trim Prius at a third the sticker price (and its cheaper to fuel).

EDIT: sorry I just noticed how off topic we're getting.
__________________
See my car's mod & maintenance thread and my electric bicycle's thread for ongoing projects. I will rebuild Black and Green over decades as parts die, until it becomes a different car of roughly the same shape and color. My minimum fuel economy goal is 55 mpg while averaging posted speed limits. I generally top 60 mpg. See also my Honda manual transmission specs thread.



  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2016, 12:36 PM   #177 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
sendler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Syracuse, NY USA
Posts: 2,935

Honda CBR250R FI Single - '11 Honda CBR250R
90 day: 105.14 mpg (US)

2001 Honda Insight stick - '01 Honda Insight manual
90 day: 60.68 mpg (US)

2009 Honda Fit auto - '09 Honda Fit Auto
90 day: 38.51 mpg (US)

PCX153 - '13 Honda PCX150
90 day: 104.48 mpg (US)

2015 Yamaha R3 - '15 Yamaha R3
90 day: 80.94 mpg (US)

Ninja650 - '19 Kawasaki Ninja 650
90 day: 72.57 mpg (US)
Thanks: 326
Thanked 1,315 Times in 968 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by California98Civic View Post
I just noticed how off topic we're getting.
Just have to keep it real sometimes. This is important stuff.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2016, 02:15 PM   #178 (permalink)
EcoModding Lurker
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: France
Posts: 65

Planetaire - '07 Toyota Prius 2 plug in
90 day: 195.47 mpg (US)
Thanks: 48
Thanked 95 Times in 37 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldtamiyaphile View Post
...The US grid is 90% efficient, your charger is 90% efficient, the batteries under charge are 80% efficient, the batteries under discharge are 80% efficient, the inverter is 90% efficient, and the motor is 80-90% efficient. As high as each of those number is, those small inefficiencies do add up. You get 37% based on those numbers.

Even if you use best case scenarios (these numbers don't exists outside a lab as inverters/chargers/motors are most efficient under load while batteries are least efficient under those loads) of 90%, 95%, 90%, 90%, 95%, 90%. The EV is only 60% efficient. The Prius ICE is 40% efficient but that doesn't include energy recaptured via braking....
Sorry, no, the ev efficient is not 60%.

My last charger have 96% efficienty
My Lithium cells have about 7% losts in charging/decharging
Inverter and motor have more then 90% efficienty except at low speed or low power.
So efficienty from the plug to the transaxle is more then 80% (0.96*0.93*0.90)

A prius have losts between the engine and the output of the transaxle where is connected MG2: a part of the energy go via gears, and the rest via MG1+inverter+MG2. So 40% is the engine alone. Global efficienty depend most upon the % of electrical path. Hypermilers are able to find some sweet spot where the losts are only 5-10%. But at low speed and at hight power the losts are really more. At low power the engine don't have 40% efficiency. When engine is cold it is also true.


Unlike I have read a prius plug-in can be more efficient then a non plug-in.
One of the reasons are the cells; They have much less internal resistance. So better efficiency. During a longer time, there is less need to derate them. May be except in very cold weather.
One other reason is that the factory nimh battery is small and you can have more energy to regen then it is abble to get.
So being more heavy because heavier battery is not necessary bad efficiency.

Here, in France, driving a prius plugin in ev mode release much less COČ and is much less expensive. But this depend upon your country. You may have solar cells ...
__________________

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2016, 07:45 PM   #179 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
oldtamiyaphile's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,510

UFI - '12 Fiat 500 Twinair
Team Turbocharged!
90 day: 40.3 mpg (US)

Jeep - '05 Jeep Wrangler Renegade
90 day: 18.09 mpg (US)

R32 - '89 Nissan Skyline

STiG - '16 Renault Trafic 140dCi Energy
90 day: 30.12 mpg (US)

Prius - '05 Toyota Prius
Team Toyota
90 day: 50.25 mpg (US)

Premodded - '49 Ford Freighter
90 day: 13.48 mpg (US)

F-117 - '10 Proton Arena GLSi
Pickups
Mitsubishi
90 day: 37.82 mpg (US)

Ralica - '85 Toyota Celica ST
90 day: 25.23 mpg (US)

Sx4 - '07 Suzuki Sx4
90 day: 32.21 mpg (US)

F-117 (2) - '03 Citroen Xsara VTS
90 day: 30.06 mpg (US)
Thanks: 325
Thanked 452 Times in 319 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by planetaire View Post
Here, in France, driving a prius plugin in ev mode release much less COČ and is much less expensive. But this depend upon your country. You may have solar cells ...
Valid points. I think the G4 ECO with Lithium pack might fix the regen/ charge efficiency issue, to be on par with a plug in.

I do have solar cells, but EVs are charged at home over night, when PV arrays don't work. At any rate you have to live in a mansion to have enough north/south (as appropriate) aspect to meet your household needs and charge an EV.
__________________







Last edited by oldtamiyaphile; 01-08-2016 at 03:38 AM..
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2016, 03:27 PM   #180 (permalink)
Human Environmentalist
 
redpoint5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 12,756

Acura TSX - '06 Acura TSX
90 day: 24.19 mpg (US)

Lafawnda - CBR600 - '01 Honda CBR600 F4i
90 day: 47.32 mpg (US)

Big Yeller - Dodge/Cummins - '98 Dodge Ram 2500 base
90 day: 21.82 mpg (US)

Chevy ZR-2 - '03 Chevrolet S10 ZR2
90 day: 17.14 mpg (US)

Model Y - '24 Tesla Y LR AWD

Pacifica Hybrid - '21 Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid
90 day: 57.45 mpg (US)
Thanks: 4,317
Thanked 4,472 Times in 3,437 Posts
All of this talk about well to wheels is besides the point (and the topic of this thread).

It currently costs me $0.04 per mile on gasoline and $0.02 per mile on electricity. Since it's cheaper to drive on electricity, it's in my economic interest to plug in as much as possible. My electricity is mostly hydro generated, and cheaper than most anywhere else in the world.

Generally speaking, when things cost less, they also consume less resources.

I'm going to make purchasing decisions based on what is in my economic interest. Financial decisions have an enormous impact on me, yet close to zero impact on the environment, especially with respect to the quality of life to other humans.

__________________
Gas and Electric Vehicle Cost of Ownership Calculator







Give me absolute safety, or give me death!
  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread






Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com