Does it frustrate you too?

[cfg83]

Arragonis -

Yup, I misunderstood. I was thinking what I wanted, aka access to EU trannies that could bolt into US cars (think Opel/GM, Honda, or Ford).

And yup again, the Saturn Astra (nice car!) was introduced when the Euro was strong against the dollar, a sales failure waiting to happen.

CarloSW2

[Arragonis]

Of course if the makers of those cars - Daewoo, Toyota, Honda, Ford, GM - knew there was a demand then they would fill it.

[cleanspeed1]

I believe that the reason for the lack of demand is the lack of information. What would be the best way to raise awareness of the cars and trucks that we know about?

How would something like this be marketed?

[Sidakers]

It irritates me that there are practically no real commuter cars. The four-two is the closest they come, but even that's not a real "commuter car".

I'm your average driver. I drive by myself about 90% of the time, and the most cargo I haul is a backpack. If I could have any car at all, I would pick a VW L1. Unfortunately this jewel of a commuter car will almost certainly never make it state-side, even as a niche vehicle. Even though it's so small it could probably be shipped here by standard means, the taxes on the import would make it too expensive to be feasible.

As far as other commuters go, the volt isn't much more than a publicity stunt, it's too expensive to be accessible to the wide majority. The economy tango would be great if someone could actually fund it. It looks like the only real hope for a good commuter in america is the Tesla bluestar, but even then that's years out and with service centers being so few and far between (and limited investors willing to adapt to "quick charge" stations), it won't take off unless there are some major changes, which there probably wont be.

Commuter cars are the way to go to improve the serious automotive issues this country is facing. Suppose you have four people, who drive 1000 Miles a month by themselves. They also take a monthly 50 mile trip all packed into the same car. Assume they all have cars that get 30 mpg.

Thats [(12,000 miles * 4 vehicles) + (50 miles * 12 months)]/30. That's 1620 Gallons of gas used per year.

Now suppose they are driving commuter cars that can average 60 MPG, the only difference is that on their monthly trip they have to take two vehicles.

So you have [(12000 * 4 vehicles) + (50 * 12 months * 2)]/60. That's only 820 Gallons of gas used per year.

This may be an oversimplification but the point remains, If commuter cars were made then the end consumer, the environment, and the sustainable market would ALL receive a huge bonus, but americans have this stupid idea that they need at least 3 extra seats at all times. I can't blame Car companies for catering to this idea, it's their job to make a profit.

People are just too short sighted to see how they are giving themselves the shaft. No one cares about sustainability or the environment, and when oil prices (and by extension the price of EVERYTHING) just keeps rising they want to point fingers at the government, at the oil companies, and the gas stations, at the car companies, but never at themselves. If they would be willing to sacrifice that vroom vroom engine they would be doing themselves a great service. I assure you, it would not be that hard to put a bluetooth module in an l1, and it wouldn't be hard to put a sound system in it either if that's your thing. It's just this stupid mentality that "I HAVE TO GET THERE RIGHT NOW" that people have.

/rant

I Think I might just have to save up and build a *****in' electric tadpole trike. It may be the only way to get a decent efficient commuter vehicle. Back to the original topic of the thread, no it doesn't irritate me that New SUVs and trucks are getting better gas milage, in fact, I'm thrilled, but it's like putting a band-aid on the bleeding stumps where there used to be feet.

[d0sitmatr]

Originally Posted by Sidakers

just keeps rising they want to point fingers at the government, at the oil companies, and the gas stations, at the car companies, but never at themselves.

well, according to several things Ive read, we actually can blame the oil companies, they have been raising the price of oil consistently over the past few years for no reason other than they know the demand is there and that we have no choice but to pay it.
I mean, think of it in the terms of what I posted above about Venezuela, according to a report I read on MSN.com they are paying less than a dollar a gallon over there, because they have easy access to the oil.
if we had something feasible that could compete with the oil companies, you would see prices on oil plummet pretty darn quickly Im betting, not to mention a severe drop in terrorist activities across the globe since more than 1/2 their funding options would be gone.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by Arragonis

Of course if the makers of those cars - Daewoo, Toyota, Honda, Ford, GM - knew there was a demand then they would fill it.

The experience of history suggests that you're dead wrong. For instance, the import & sales of the original VW bug showed that there was a demand for small cars. Did the US automakers build small cars? Toyota's introduction of the SR5 small pickup in the early '70s showed that there was a demand for small pickups. Did US automakers build small pickups? And so on...

PS: And it seems as though that demand still exists. I had an '84 Toyota for years, but it had carb problems and I couldn't get it to pass the smog check. Bought an '88 - barely beating out several other responses to the guy's ad, and listed mine on Craigslist the next morning. It was gone that evening.

[Arragonis]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

The experience of history suggests that you're dead wrong. For instance, the import & sales of the original VW bug showed that there was a demand for small cars. Did the US automakers build small cars? Toyota's introduction of the SR5 small pickup in the early '70s showed that there was a demand for small pickups. Did US automakers build small pickups? And so on...

The VW Beetle was always a niche car - it sold a fraction of the cars sold by the domestic makers. VW had to change the policy and fast in the 1970s to come up with the Golf. They even experimented with a rear engined, FWD car because they were worried so much and needed a solution fast.

During that period 50s to 70s a lot of smaller Euro cars make by Ford, GM and Chrysler did make it to the US but (some at least) were not heavily marketed :

GM - sold small Vauxhalls to the US during the late 50s and 60s - Wyvern, Victor, Cresta

Ford - sold small Fords to the US, including the Prefect in the late 1950s. Later "world car" models like the Mk3 Escort were developed in Germany. The Fester was sold in the 1970s along with the Capri and Cortina. You now also get the Focus and Fester. How long before the Mondeo displaces the Fusion.

Chrysler - the Horizon was developed as a SIMCA in Europe.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by Arragonis

The VW Beetle was always a niche car - it sold a fraction of the cars sold by the domestic makers.

5 million vehicles is a pretty big niche :-) It's not uncommon to still see the occasional Beetle on the roads around here, while about the only time I see other cars of that era is when they're ramping up for the annual "classic" car event. Add the VW van to those, too: I've got a neighbor who still has one he drives for camping, and there's another down the road used by a "faux" painter as work vehicle/rolling advertisment.

(And FWIW, I was around for at least some of those times. Beetles and VW vans were cool :-))

VW had to change the policy and fast in the 1970s to come up with the Golf.

Which IIRC didn't sell all that well :-) Indeed, I don't think anything of theirs except the Rabbit sold much in the US.

Ford.... The Fester was sold in the 1970s along with the Capri and Cortina. You now also get the Focus and Fester...

The Ford Fester? You're serious?

[Arragonis]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

5 million vehicles is a pretty big niche :-)...

That figure is worldwide, including places where it continued in production after sales ended in the US and Europe. A company was still importing them into the UK about 5 years ago from Mexico I think - but they had absolutely no rustproofing so they dissolved in months on our salty roads.

If it wasn't a niche in the States then everyone would have one, so all those GM/Ford/Chrysler year on year updates would have been a waste of time, and clearly for a while (when they had no competition) they weren't.

Originally Posted by jamesqf

(And FWIW, I was around for at least some of those times. Beetles and VW vans were cool :-))

Me too. Me and Junior spotted a Danbury Series 2 (the van) one the other day and I had to explain to him about how that van now costs more than a new Porsche Cockster. Danbury van has Fuchs alloys, full leather trim, metallic paint - the full works. Lovely, but would probably drive like a pedal car these days. It even has a water cooled engine.

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Which IIRC didn't sell all that well :-) Indeed, I don't think anything of theirs except the Rabbit sold much in the US.

Er, VW Rabbit (US) = VW Golf (Europe) - its the same car. VW has loads of names for cars the world over, like Jetta = Bora in Europe (only for some years though), Fox (never sold in Europe until the recent small hatchback) and Santana - Mexico made and sold in Europe.

Originally Posted by jamesqf

The Ford Fester? You're serious?

Fester is a sort of affectionate name for the Ford Fiesta, like "Ford Capri" becomes "Ford Crapi" or "Porsche Boxster" becomes "Porsche Cockster" when you include the drivers. There was an old joke which compared hedgehogs to BMWs here in the UK - the difference being that on Hedgehogs the pricks were on the outside.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by Arragonis

That figure is worldwide, including places where it continued in production after sales ended in the US and Europe.

Nope, the 5 million is US sales. Worldwide sales were upwards of 20 million.

If it wasn't a niche in the States then everyone would have one...

Well, you could apply that same argument to every car model.

Er, VW Rabbit (US) = VW Golf (Europe) - its the same car.

Maybe, maybe not. IIRC (I'm not a VW expert) the Golf is an ongoing name, with model changes through the years. If I'm not mistaken, the Rabbit in the US was the Golf Mark 1. And again, I'm just going by memory, but IIRC it was popular here mostly because of the Cabriolet version, which was one of the few convertibles available at the time.