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Old 08-28-2016, 09:35 PM   #31 (permalink)
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I understand pinging and the reason why the "optimal" ignition point is 15 degrees or so after TDC.
I said the "ideal" or theoretical point for maximum pressure would be be immediately (.0000001 degs) after TDC.
This assumes that the materials can handle the forces and adiabatic expansion.
Look up the later to see why HHO works.

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Old 08-28-2016, 10:00 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DragBean View Post
I understand pinging and the reason why the "optimal" ignition point is 15 degrees or so after TDC.
I said the "ideal" or theoretical point for maximum pressure would be be immediately (.0000001 degs) after TDC.
This assumes that the materials can handle the forces and adiabatic expansion.
Look up the later to see why HHO works.
Nothing to do with materials withstanding forces! look at the geometry - pushing down on the piston when the crank is at full extension and the connecting rod is aligned with it will waste a f$%^load of energy trying to compress the connecting rod as well as squeezing out the oil film and destroying the bearings. It will also try to push the piston out the side of the cylinder bore.

Seriously, time would be better spent discussing the benefits of building engines from unobtanium and running them with dilithium crystal powered warp generators.

Simon.

Last edited by LittleBlackDuck; 08-28-2016 at 10:01 PM.. Reason: added info
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Old 08-28-2016, 10:30 PM   #33 (permalink)
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HHO a waste of time?
Agreed.
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Old 08-29-2016, 12:17 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Other than driving changes . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
HHO a waste of time?
Agreed.
. . . pretty much EVERY mod on this site NEVER returns the time and money spent in the exercise.

So why do it?

HHO is not the all encompassing silver bullet the snake oil salesmen put it out to be, but it does have value, if you are willing to put the effort into it. The Madyira paper shows HHO has promise. There are more papers. The reference footnotes are valuable and are worth looking up.

Understanding is a big part of the exercise and the greatest reward. Learning is too.
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Old 08-29-2016, 12:25 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyLugNut View Post
. . . pretty much EVERY mod on this site NEVER returns the time and money spent in the exercise.

So why do it?

HHO is not the all encompassing silver bullet the snake oil salesmen put it out to be, but it does have value, if you are willing to put the effort into it. The Madyira paper shows HHO has promise. There are more papers. The reference footnotes are valuable and are worth looking up.

Understanding is a big part of the exercise and the greatest reward. Learning is too.
I agree with the lack of RoI for most modifications, but there are some that appear way too tenuous. HHO appears to be either way too immature for any real, solid facts to be available or just a crock, depending on how you interpret the sparse facts. Hydrogen as an adjuvant fuel may have some promise along the lines of running propane with diesel, but I seriously doubt that it will make quantum leaps in internal combustion efficiency. I also hope to be proven wrong...

Simon
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Old 08-29-2016, 12:38 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Did you look at the Madyira paper?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleBlackDuck View Post
I agree with the lack of RoI for most modifications, but there are some that appear way too tenuous. HHO appears to be either way too immature for any real, solid facts to be available or just a crock, depending on how you interpret the sparse facts. Hydrogen as an adjuvant fuel may have some promise along the lines of running propane with diesel, but I seriously doubt that it will make quantum leaps in internal combustion efficiency. I also hope to be proven wrong...

Simon
The vehicle was a your basic carburetor equipped vehicle. It had a fuel system that is very limited. Much the same could be assumed about the ignition system. Their electrolysis generator was primitive and could use several improvements. Yet, they found a few percent gains in certain regimes of operation. This was all at the air/fuel balance of 14.7:1.

If HHO can help at stoichiometric mixes, imagine what it could do to extend the lean limits of combustion?
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Old 08-29-2016, 12:48 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyLugNut View Post
If HHO can help at stoichiometric mixes, imagine what it could do to extend the lean limits of combustion?
That is a bit of an extrapolation that I would be reluctant to make. I doubt that the carburetor was operating consistently near stoichiometric AFR, and even if it was, then I am interested in the reasoning that extends the benefits to lean burn given that the stoichiometric ratio for HHO is 2:1 and petrol 14.7:1. To extend into lean burn territory there needs to be an alternate reaction pathway or a synergistic / catalytic reaction phenomenon.

Simon
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Old 08-29-2016, 01:28 AM   #38 (permalink)
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The continuing HHO crock

Spent a few minutes looking into some of the claims made for HHO and in the first "scientific article" that I found there was this gem of a statement:

The HHO gas comes from the separation of water molecules HeOH. It has high calorific value and 1 kg of HHO is three times as potent as gasoline.

http://www.blulabresearch.org/wp-con....Al-Rousan.pdf
Ten seconds more research revealed the following facts:
  • Pure Hydrogen has a calorific value of 13 Mj/Kg
  • Petrol has a calorific value of 45.8 Mj/Kg.
This is discounting the space taken up by the oxygen in the HHO gas....

What a load of crapola!

Simon

Last edited by LittleBlackDuck; 08-29-2016 at 01:33 AM.. Reason: added url
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Old 08-29-2016, 02:27 AM   #39 (permalink)
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https://www.hho-1.com/hydrogen-hho-information-facts/

Notic the PM .(soot/un burnedfuel) reduction from215 down to 37. When this extra soot is turned into crankshaft horsepower..

I must play devals advicit they do not specify how much HHO is being used, or if the gas is on border crankshaft power or shore power to obtain these results. but the results are more impressive than what CARB has come up with for diesels.
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Old 08-29-2016, 03:43 AM   #40 (permalink)
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You didn't read the paper did you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleBlackDuck View Post
That is a bit of an extrapolation that I would be reluctant to make. I doubt that the carburetor was operating consistently near stoichiometric AFR, and even if it was, then I am interested in the reasoning that extends the benefits to lean burn given that the stoichiometric ratio for HHO is 2:1 and petrol 14.7:1. To extend into lean burn territory there needs to be an alternate reaction pathway or a synergistic / catalytic reaction phenomenon.

Simon
The carburetor , by their report, was adjusted to stoichiometric at each test point. They made an addition of HHO of up to 0.45% by volume.

In other threads I have put forth the reasoning behind the ability of a very small amount of HHO to accelerate the combustion via a theory I call "railroading" the side reactions that occur in the thermochemical mess that is the chemistry of combustion. Are you familiar with the basic science behind combustion chemistry? Radical production? Radical interaction? Are you aware of the great number of chemical pathways that occur during combustion of even the simplest of hydrocarbons?

I only ask the above because other forum members have derided my "basic science" simply because they don't have the background to discuss the topic. If you are not familiar with the above science of combustion, understand that it is taught at most engineering schools in the upper and graduate course levels, but it is a basic science.

By accelerating combustion, even by a few degrees of crank rotation, you can save several percent of lost thermal energy at stoichiometric fuel mixes. At lean burn, crank lead at ignition might be in the area of 45 to 60 degrees at cruise. That is a lot of wasted pressure before top-dead-center working against power production. You ask if I am just making this up? No, I have tested it on a 1990 Daihatsu Charade with the CB90 engine which has a relatively "lazy" combustion chamber comprised of a hemispherical head and straight shot intake passages. Running at 22:1 AFR resulted in missed ignition cycles and a COV ( co-efficient of variability ) well above the 5% rule of thumb for a good running engine. The engine could barely run at 24:1 AFR. It must be pointed out that engines designed to run in lean burn, such as the Honda engines, can run up to this point with reasonable COV, but the CB90 could not. Now, the addition of some HHO via an alternator powered electrolysis cell results in a smooth running engine up to 28:1 AFR. That was the limit of the Innovate Wideband O2 sensor we were using. You ask if I did ABA testing? Sure, turn off the HHO generator at 28:1 AFR and the engine cannot run.

Combustion progresses from the production of active radicals, but, if you seed the mixture with H2 and O2 ( of which some of the electrolysis product is O3 ) you can have a mixture rich in radicals BEFORE ignition if enough energy is present in the combustion mix to dissociate the diatomic H2 and ozone.

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