HHO May Benefit Kill Switch System

[pgfpro]

IMO I think today's engines are not there yet when it comes to fast burn combustion. They are improving every year but still not there. The closer you can have ignition near TDC with max cylinder pressure 15 to 20 degrees ATDC the better. Today's F1 engines are breaking into uncharted territory with their new fast burn HCCI technology. So I think we will see some improvement in this area.

I'm starting to experiment with my lean burn Talon by utilizing N2O to increase flame speed while in lean burn. This should help a ton to increase FE. The down side is I'm using a very expensive oxidizer to improve flame speed so its not cost effective at all, but i want to see if it will work so later I can test some HHO theory to see if it will increase flame speed?

[DragBean]

The majority of the energy from gas is lost as heat in a piston driven engine. A piston driven engine has to convert the chemical energy of the gas into thermal energy before it can extract that energy in the form of mechanical energy via expansion of gas. Once again if all the energy in the gas were to be released at TDC that would allow the piston to extract the most amount of thermal energy possible. A faster flame front directly correlates to the speed the chemical energy is released.

[DragBean]

Pgfpro - Is that nitrous oxide?
Sounds sweet.
One thing I'm thinking about is when a gas combusts it releases it's energy as both heat and pressure. H2 and O2 not only burns quickly, it also produces steam which wveeyone knows has a huge expansion ratio.

[Ecky]

Originally Posted by DragBean

The majority of the energy from gas is lost as heat in a piston driven engine. A piston driven engine has to convert the chemical energy of the gas into thermal energy before it can extract that energy in the form of mechanical energy via expansion of gas. Once again if all the energy in the gas were to be released at TDC that would allow the piston to extract the most amount of thermal energy possible. A faster flame front directly correlates to the speed the chemical energy is released.

While this is true, the gases remain in the cylinder the same amount of time in contact with the cylinder walls, regardless of their flame speed. Improving on this, as I understand it, would require both a change in fuel, and a physical redesign of the engine block.

Honda has been working on this for decades. Back in the 80's they were designing cylinder heads that had multiple spark plugs for each cylinder, and valves that opened asymmetrically (in a very specific way) so as to encourage atomized fuel to only occupy a specific region inside the head. More modern engines also use index plugs, offset crankshafts, and some other things I'm sure I'm forgetting.

Again, I'm pretty certain that advantages of a different flame front could be had, but in a highly tuned engine, such as the Honda engines that members on this forum regularly already get 75-100mpg out of, it's going to require mechanical redesign as well.

[pgfpro]

Originally Posted by DragBean

Pgfpro - Is that nitrous oxide?
Sounds sweet.
One thing I'm thinking about is when a gas combusts it releases it's energy as both heat and pressure. H2 and O2 not only burns quickly, it also produces steam which wveeyone knows has a huge expansion ratio.

Yes Nitrous Oxide
The test will be a very simple one. I'm basically using a leaking nitrous solenoid I have laying around to use for the test. Set fuel cells so it can't hunt for a richer cell, then lower the ignition advance at 50mph 30:1 A/F with nitrous enable and repeat with nitrous disable and increase ignition advance.

I've seen some calculations there suggest the theoretical maximum thermodynamic efficiency of any OTTO cycle ICE is around 46%, and both Honda and Toyota have exceeded 40% without direct injection. That really doesn't leave a lot of room for HHO to improve things in an already well-tuned engine.

I think the key is engines that are lean burn will need always have a slow flame front. So the manufacturers are working on different ideas to increase the flame front during lean burn. The non lean burn engines are pretty close to ignition at TDC and are producing great numbers, so they wouldn't gain to much from a faster flame front.

[gumby79]

Originally Posted by DragBean

If all the fuel got burnt just a hair after tdc youd have the ideal situation.

When the fire finishes burning to soon. This is commonly referred to as spark nock, pinging ,detonation; normally bad resulting in bent rods ,broken crankshafts, melted pistons, ect.ect. Befor computers you had to retard the timeing to compensate and some times colder plugs or more fule.
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Ecky I'm thinking that either 1) hotter plugs, or 2) a DC-DC converter would be a more simple, more effective solution here - if a cooler spark is even a problem.

One thing I've always wondered about with HHO claims is where the extra power is supposed to come from. You're certainly not going to get 4-10% gains from more complete combustion, since combustion completion in modern engines is well over 99%.

If it's a matter of gasoline's flame front being too slow for the engine, that sounds more to me like the engine was not designed properly to burn gasoline.

Hotter plug will not solve weak spark, its steal lacking enough energy. And when the Alt. is switched on bad things could happen an overheated sparkplug acts like a glow plug in a Indirect Injection diesel engine causing pre-ignition/detonation that can't be controlled by the computer.
A dc-dc or race battery posably a LiPO4@14vdc would be comparable to running the charging system.

A cold spark from battery only race cars brought us MSD ignition, and 16vdc race batteries $269for a high capacity @ jegs.com

The extra power comes from the 2extra electrons HOH Configuration and absolutely no scientific understanding of how HHO can melt tungsten and in the same breth not burn your skin.

If ICE gas or more efficient diesel were near 99% efficient we would all be getting electric car mileage .

You are correct todays gasoline engine is not designed for the flame front speed of Lean Burn. This is what is being compensated for with NO2/HHO.

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how do hydroxyls effect the combustion process ?
If you can't answer this question, than you need to quit being Thomas Edison's assistant telling him that the 1st 999light bulbs didn't work so you should quit now, before you go and make this idea into reality, something that works. This is for all.

The only reason HHO is in the Unicorn Coral is that we haven't gotten this Turbo as a charger? off the ground. Or some other non-crankshaft power supply up and running. . And DragBean is talking about non -crankshaft power supply Alt. cut out. So get off your high horse and get your hands dirty. Find an answer, not an excuse to not try.

In the Browns Gas water plasma model, the water molecule goes from the tetrahedral and bent (4 electron pairs, 2 being used and 2 not being used) to the trigonal bipyramidal (5 electron pairs, 2 being used and 3 not being used), this causes the shape change.
Thursday, 11 February 2010
Brown's Gas: Fuel from Water

If you can figure out the HHO riddle thirs a Nobel Prize in it for you. Read the article. But you have to get past "Big Oil" to claim it.
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What configuration of hho generator are you working with ? Wet /dry cell

Gumby stay flexible.

[DragBean]

A lot of stuff melted, fuses blown, my switch kept on messing up, bizarre oxidation, the gas was often not getting into the engine, and at one point had an almond milk cartoon pop like a firecracker when I was idiotically use a lighter to test for leaks...
But overall I saw anywhere from 3% to one time 20% mpg gains.
Seemed to have a few more Hps too.

Definitely need to make a better setup not consisting of electrodes in almond milk containers. It would be great to see someone else supply data.

[ChazInMT]

3-20%....People get those variations over normal driving.

We have beaten HHO to death and have come to the conclusion that there is no way possible for it to work. The numbers never support it, it takes too much electricity to produce the gas even under ideal circumstances, it fails to produce any where close to a break-even energy gain. HHO Proponents rely on the fallacy that a tiny amount of hydrogen will somehow react with the fuel to create a disproportionate increase in power through some mumbo jumbo reaction that only occurs from the hydrogen created by the HHO generator. It has never been explained how, no independent documentation or research papers have been referenced, It's always a "Trust Me, This is how it works" thing.

So, unless you can explain how you can produce a lot of hydrogen and explain how the tiny addition of hydrogen to the gasoline creates an appreciable gain in power, beyond the power used to create it, you may wanna end this talk about how HHO can improve MPG.

[gumby79]

Originally Posted by ChazInMT

3-20%....People get those variations over normal driving.

We have beaten HHO to death and have come to the conclusion
So, unless you can explain how you can produce a lot of hydrogen and explain how the tiny addition of hydrogen to the gasoline creates an appreciable gain in power, beyond the power used to create it, you may wanna end this talk about how HHO can improve MPG.

The Hocus Pocus mumbo jumboxis the cutting edge of plasma science. There still submitting new words to Webster to described the different aspects of plasma..
The difference between HHO and H2 is simple
H2 is a highly reactive element in gas form (as it applies in this conversation)
HHO is H2O in plasma state . H2O is a moleculein the 4th phase. ... plasma.
Notic the different shape .
Extra electrons
Polarities

The extra attached electrons release more energy escaping orbit than it takes to enter orbit. Eg it takes more energy to escape Earths gravitational force than it takes to enter. Shoemaker-levy 9 took 0.0 enregy to enter Jupiter's atmosphere but released astronomical amounts of energy. Had levy 9 come in the right angle speed ect ect, it would have been a new moon on the first pass or 10+ on the 2nd pass..

In order for ignition to occur the extra electrons most both reach escape volisity.

Your stand seems to be:
It's a brake even technology. You don't lose efficiency, but you don't gain so its a waste.

My stand is:
I agree.
If the charging efficiency improved 5% (from 7%to 12%),however, this would become a viable technology .
Gumby Stay Flexible.

[jakobnev]

How do you charge the battery back up?

And I can't help but to think that adding an HHO-cell will worsen the low voltage problem significantly.