Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > EcoModding Central
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 09-05-2017, 06:47 AM   #111 (permalink)
EcoModding Lurker
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Paterson
Posts: 7
Thanks: 2
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
It also applies very well to all the information we get and experience we share in day-to-day matters

  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 05-19-2018, 11:12 PM   #112 (permalink)
EcoModding Lurker
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 8
Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts


I miss Carl
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2018, 11:26 AM   #113 (permalink)
Cyborg ECU
 
California98Civic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Coastal Southern California
Posts: 6,299

Black and Green - '98 Honda Civic DX Coupe
Team Honda
90 day: 66.42 mpg (US)

Black and Red - '00 Nashbar Custom built eBike
90 day: 3671.43 mpg (US)
Thanks: 2,373
Thanked 2,172 Times in 1,469 Posts
When I joined this site there was more testing of mods being posted. We do less of that now it seems. Is that because people consult all these older tests? Or is it because of some other shift in the use of EM?
__________________
See my car's mod & maintenance thread and my electric bicycle's thread for ongoing projects. I will rebuild Black and Green over decades as parts die, until it becomes a different car of roughly the same shape and color. My minimum fuel economy goal is 55 mpg while averaging posted speed limits. I generally top 60 mpg. See also my Honda manual transmission specs thread.



  Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2018, 04:50 AM   #114 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: KY
Posts: 1,351

IGL - '04 Saturn Ion
Team Saturn
90 day: 56.19 mpg (US)
Thanks: 63
Thanked 365 Times in 268 Posts
Personally when I do a mod that’s already been tested, I don’t bother with ABA testing (example, when I put on the smooth wheel covers), or sometimes even a load test at a specific speed... in other cases, reversing a mod for a ABA test is simply too bothersome (like when I did the ported intake manifold)

I guess should I do anything groundbreaking, I’ll have to stop being lazy and actually test my work...
__________________
My current Ecotec project...


My last Ecotec project...
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2018, 09:22 AM   #115 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
mpg_numbers_guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: VA
Posts: 1,367

Toby - '13 Toyota Prius C
90 day: 61.95 mpg (US)

Daz - '15 Mazda 3 iTouring w/ Tech Package
90 day: 38.2 mpg (US)
Thanks: 323
Thanked 482 Times in 367 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by 19bonestock88 View Post
Personally when I do a mod that’s already been tested, I don’t bother with ABA testing (example, when I put on the smooth wheel covers), or sometimes even a load test at a specific speed... in other cases, reversing a mod for a ABA test is simply too bothersome (like when I did the ported intake manifold)

I guess should I do anything groundbreaking, I’ll have to stop being lazy and actually test my work...
Same.
__________________
2013 Toyota Prius C 2 (my car)


2015 Mazda 3 iTouring Hatchback w/ Tech Package (wife's car)
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2018, 12:51 PM   #116 (permalink)
Cyborg ECU
 
California98Civic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Coastal Southern California
Posts: 6,299

Black and Green - '98 Honda Civic DX Coupe
Team Honda
90 day: 66.42 mpg (US)

Black and Red - '00 Nashbar Custom built eBike
90 day: 3671.43 mpg (US)
Thanks: 2,373
Thanked 2,172 Times in 1,469 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by 19bonestock88 View Post
Personally when I do a mod that’s already been tested, I don’t bother with ABA testing (example, when I put on the smooth wheel covers), or sometimes even a load test at a specific speed... in other cases, reversing a mod for a ABA test is simply too bothersome (like when I did the ported intake manifold)

I guess should I do anything groundbreaking, I’ll have to stop being lazy and actually test my work...
I am about the same. But cars are all different. The testing focus is one of the cooler features of this community.
__________________
See my car's mod & maintenance thread and my electric bicycle's thread for ongoing projects. I will rebuild Black and Green over decades as parts die, until it becomes a different car of roughly the same shape and color. My minimum fuel economy goal is 55 mpg while averaging posted speed limits. I generally top 60 mpg. See also my Honda manual transmission specs thread.



  Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2019, 12:56 PM   #117 (permalink)
Intermediate EcoDriver
 
Mustang Dave's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Northern Arizona - It's a DRY cold..
Posts: 671

Trigger - '07 Ford Mustang V6 Premium Coupe
Team Mustang
Sports Cars
90 day: 32.76 mpg (US)

Big Red (retired) - '89 Ford F-250 4wd Custom
90 day: 18.13 mpg (US)

Big Red II - '13 Ford F-150 FX4
Pickups
90 day: 19.61 mpg (US)
Thanks: 163
Thanked 129 Times in 102 Posts
I put pizza pan wheel covers on my Mustang for several months. Unlike some people's results, they made no noticeable difference in fuel economy on my Mustang. And chicks didn't dig 'em. I took 'em off.

As for the under-drive crankshaft pulley, it would have been quite time-consuming to do A-B-A testing, so I just did A-B testing. "B" FTW. ~3% gain in MPG. It'll pay for itself in fuel savings in ~150K miles. In the mean time, I've got bragging rights. I'm averaging over 32 MPG with a 4-liter Mustang.
__________________
Fuel economy is nice, but sometimes I just gotta put the spurs to my pony!



Quote:
Originally Posted by thatguitarguy View Post
Just 'cuz you can't do it, don't mean it can't be done...
Quote:
Originally Posted by elhigh View Post
The presence of traffic is the single most complicating factor of hypermiling. I know what I'm going to do, it's contending with whatever the hell all these other people are going to do that makes things hard.

Last edited by Mustang Dave; 09-07-2019 at 01:12 PM..
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2020, 06:50 PM   #118 (permalink)
Cyborg ECU
 
California98Civic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Coastal Southern California
Posts: 6,299

Black and Green - '98 Honda Civic DX Coupe
Team Honda
90 day: 66.42 mpg (US)

Black and Red - '00 Nashbar Custom built eBike
90 day: 3671.43 mpg (US)
Thanks: 2,373
Thanked 2,172 Times in 1,469 Posts
One of the things I have always loved most about this forum has been its testing and respectful skepticism practice. The first post from this sticky lays it out well. That's right, I am following a 2014 necropost, with a 2009 necropost... Xist, do I get the necroposting award again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MetroMPG View Post
Here on EcoModder we see a lot of claims made about the effectiveness (or lack of effectiveness) of specific modifications. It's an understatement to say not all claims are made equal.

Just because someone says a modification worked for them, that does not make it "proof".

When looking at the claims a person or company makes about a modification, we need to understand that the the likelihood their claim is true or not is directly related to whether they know how to conduct a proper test.

So we should be respectfully skeptical of fuel economy claims made until we know the details of how the modification was tested. We should remain skeptical if the testing was weak or the test details aren't given.

(Note that "skepticism" doesn't equal "disbelief".)

-------------------
Lab testing is king

-------------------

Testing done on a dynamometer or in a wind tunnel is ideal, since it reduces to a minium the number of variables that can affect the outcome.

(We should be especially skeptical of companies selling supposed fuel saving products that don't do lab testing or offer the testing details to consumers. After all, if they're convinced their product works, they should feel confident about investing in the cost of high quality testing. Wouldn't it improve the product's sales potential?)

Of course, it's still entirely possible to screw up lab testing, but it's the best starting point.


------------------------------------------------
On-road testing: the poor cousin of lab testing
------------------------------------------------

Unfortunately, not too many EcoModder members have access to chassis dynamometers or wind tunnels. This leaves on-road testing as the next option, and so right off the bat the potential quality of the results goes down.

Why? Because outside of a lab, the number of variables that can distort a test goes waaaaaay up.

That said, there are different degrees of on-road testing. It can range from truly useless "junk science" to reasonably acceptable experimentation. The difference boils down to the amount of effort made to reduce the number of variables that can influence the outcome.


---------------------------------------
What's the big deal about variability?
---------------------------------------

In short: we need to be confident that the results we are seeing are from the modification being tested, and not from some outside factor(s).

Fuel consumption is remarkably sensitive to all kinds of variables:
  • ambient temperature
  • wind
  • humidity
  • barometric pressure
  • vehicle temperature (not just engine, but the entire drivetrain including transmission, joints, bearings, tires)
  • fuel grade/quality
  • payload
  • elevation/road grade
  • road surface conditions / type
  • speed
  • other traffic
  • driving style / driver psychology
All of these factors have an impact on fuel use through changing engine load, aerodynamic load, rolling resistance, chemical reactivity and thermodynamic efficiency.

Most individual vehicle mods have a very small potential impact on overall fuel consumption - typically in the range of a couple of percent. So you can see how trying to conduct a test while all kinds of other variables are changing would make the results meaningless.

Not only could you end up seeing an improvement that isn't actually caused by the modification, the reverse is also true: Uncontrolled variables could also prevent an actual improvement from showing up in the data.

The reason lab testing is king is because it can eliminate the highest number of these variables from a test.


--------------------------------------------------------
How to do "as controlled as possible" on-road testing
--------------------------------------------------------

So we've established that we should be automatically skeptical of on-road testing. Just how skeptical depends on how many variables the tester has managed to eliminate.

The further you get from this following example, the less confidence we should have in the results.

1) The vehicle should be fully warmed up, including drivetrain / tires.

2) Remove the driver's foot from the test, meaning cruise control should be used (set once, and cancelled with the brake between runs to ensure the same speed in multiple runs).

Any testing that can be affected by driver input - eg. city driving is the worst - is dramatically less scientific. A driver may unconsciously change driving style to get the desired result (experimenter bias). An ideal experiment would be double blind.

Failing to "remove the driver" as much as possible from the test is a huge red flag and we should be very skeptical of conclusions made.

3) The route should be devoid of other traffic, to avoid significant aerodynamic impacts of vehicles ahead or overtaking.

4) Weather conditions should be as calm and stable as possible (wind gusts/changes in wind speed & temperature changes will affect results). Evening or night time testing can be preferable where atmospheric conditions are typically calmer, and there may be less traffic.

5) The route should be as flat & straight as possible.

6) Bi-directional runs should be done to average out effects of grade/wind, if present. Meaning, test on the route in both directions.

7) Use A-B-A comparisons. That means establishing a baseline (the first "A" set of runs), more test runs after making a change (the "B" set), and then additional runs after undoing the change (the last "A" set).

Why do A-B-A testing? Undoing the change and immediately re-testing the final "A" set increases confidence that any difference seen in the "B" runs was caused by the modification, and not by other uncontrolled factors.

A-B-A illustration: (from Drive-cycle economy and emissions measurement - Fuel saving gadgets - a professional engineer's view)



8) A-B-A comparison runs should be done immediately one after the other to minimize the effects of changing weather conditions, vehicle temperature, weight, fuel quality, etc.

9) Be prepared to abandon runs with unexpected changes (eg. a car overtaking you, affecting aerodynamic drag)

10) The more runs the better (larger data set = higher confidence)

11) Share your raw data.


---------------------------------
Drat! Quality testing isn't easy
---------------------------------

It can actually be a big pain in the butt, and a time-eater too. (I'll often wait a week or more for calm, stable weather, and then spend 2-3 hours doing a simple A-B-A test.)

(Note, I'm not suggesting by this post that my own testing is perfect. I've done some stinker tests myself. And if I refer to the less than ideal ones, I try to point out their flaws.)

In the end, if we're not willing to do testing that's "as controlled as possible", we should have the intellectual honesty to admit that the results are questionable, and we should be wary of drawing conclusions from the data.


------
Links
------


---------------------------------------------
Topics that may be added to this post later
---------------------------------------------

  • figuring out the "quality" of data gathered in a test
  • examples of bad on-road testing
  • explanation of why on-road testing fuel/oil additives is especialy problematic
  • Other testing methods: eg. coastdown, for A-B-A of aero mods
__________________
See my car's mod & maintenance thread and my electric bicycle's thread for ongoing projects. I will rebuild Black and Green over decades as parts die, until it becomes a different car of roughly the same shape and color. My minimum fuel economy goal is 55 mpg while averaging posted speed limits. I generally top 60 mpg. See also my Honda manual transmission specs thread.




Last edited by California98Civic; 05-31-2020 at 06:58 PM.. Reason: typo
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2020, 03:30 PM   #119 (permalink)
Cyborg ECU
 
California98Civic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Coastal Southern California
Posts: 6,299

Black and Green - '98 Honda Civic DX Coupe
Team Honda
90 day: 66.42 mpg (US)

Black and Red - '00 Nashbar Custom built eBike
90 day: 3671.43 mpg (US)
Thanks: 2,373
Thanked 2,172 Times in 1,469 Posts
Posts 72 through 80

Quote:
Originally Posted by SecondWind View Post
to MetroMPG: I've read and re-read your post which starts this thread. I have no training in statistics, and although I can do the "A-B-A" testing, I don't know how to tell whether differences are significant. Can you describe "statistical significance" in layman's terms? For instance, if I do 5 two-way "A" runs with an average of 59.8 MPG, and standard deviation of 1.4, then 5 "B" runs of 60.6 MPG and s.d. of 1.4, does this mean anything?
Another useful blast from the ecomodder past, if you are interested in testing. Beginning with post #72 and running at least through #80 there is a useful beginner discussion of how reliable ABA measurements might be and how to tell. Post #72 permalink:
https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthre...tml#post306184
__________________
See my car's mod & maintenance thread and my electric bicycle's thread for ongoing projects. I will rebuild Black and Green over decades as parts die, until it becomes a different car of roughly the same shape and color. My minimum fuel economy goal is 55 mpg while averaging posted speed limits. I generally top 60 mpg. See also my Honda manual transmission specs thread.



  Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2020, 06:28 AM   #120 (permalink)
Mechanical engineer
 
Vekke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Kitee (Finland)
Posts: 1,244

Siitin - '98 Seat Cordoba Vario
90 day: 58.56 mpg (US)

VW Lupo 3L --> 2L - '00 VolksWagen Lupo 3L
Diesel
90 day: 104.94 mpg (US)

A8 luxury fuel sipper - '97 Audi A8 1.2 TDI 6 speed manual
90 day: 64.64 mpg (US)

Audi A4B6 Avant Niistäjä - '02 Audi A4b6 1.9tdi 96kW 3L
90 day: 54.57 mpg (US)

Tourekki - '04 VW Touareg 2.5TDI R5 6 speed manual
90 day: 32.98 mpg (US)

A2 1.4TDI - '03 Audi A2 1.4 TDI
90 day: 45.68 mpg (US)

A2 1.4 LPG - '02 Audi A2 1.4 (75hp)
90 day: 24.67 mpg (US)
Thanks: 259
Thanked 803 Times in 391 Posts
Many of us are doing some kind of changes to your vehicles have tried to find best ways which is the best setup of what you are testing. Usually the problem is that the changes/effects are so minimal that it is really difficult to be measured on open road as wind, others cars, weather in general, cars warmup times and how you drive the tests effect the results more than the results.
How to Minimize error

Choose a time when there is no wind
Preferably whole day sunny or cloudy as tarmac temp effect RR
If you dont have long level roads you for constant speed testing, I recommend using roads which are in the middle of forests. This minimizes wind effect and usually there is less cars to mess your testing. Also hilly road means you testing more speeds than just one constant speed meaning you get both aero and RR tested at the same place with just one test per change
warm your car fully before you start tests. I recommend 100km of driving to get everything warm. You will learn whats needed by testing.
Try to finish your testing as fast as possible so results are comparable
Biggest error in my tests have always bee pedal movement. That`s why I made custom test program for my ecu. When driven easily car works normally. But when I want to begin my efficiency test I have selected start speed where I floor the gas pedal --> This is programmed to give contant fuel injection levels throughout the whole rev range--> This means in uphills speed gets slower, In downhills higher. Then you just measure the time it took to drive your test distance. I normally use 3-5km distances. From the times you can calculate AVG speeds--> From AVG speeds you can calculate how much more power you are making or how much less drag you are producing depending what you are testing.
Do A-B-A testing to verify that you get constant results. If I dont get reliable difference and I feel the other setup is better I just double or triple the test distance. You can see from your memos if some setup works better on low speeds vs high speeds as during testing you need to select 4-6 measuring points where you measure the speeds you have at certain points of the route. Specially in engine tuning some setups works really well uphill parts and some at higher speeds. Luckily in most ecu program changes the better setup works best on both low and higher revs. So best setup is easier to find.


You can see that my #audi #a4 #1.9TDI afr gen2 #ecutuning setup is 14.5% better than cars stock program between 75-103 km/h speeds. Top speed in this test was 5 km/h higher that with stock cars engine control program which is a big difference as amount of fuel injected stayed the same during whole testing.
Results

With this kind of testing method I have been able to find even smaller changes effect reliability to my car. Previous method was to test 400km road test with each modification and that is not easy, takes time and had many error possibilities due to other traffic users and weather. Biggest improvement has been contant injection quantity values. If you just build constant throttle your and your rpm change you will have diffenrent settings that engine will use. which is not good.

With custom ecu program you can test even on not so flat routes which makes testing easier. My flat tests grounds in finland are minimal and usually there is some traffic which is not good for reliable testing.

__________________


https://www.linkedin.com/in/vesatiainen/

Vesa Tiainen innovation engineer and automotive enthusiast
  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread




Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Test: Alternator vs. no alternator = 10% MPG gain @ 70 km/h MetroMPG EcoModding Central 450 10-27-2023 09:40 AM
Project: Rebuilding an '01 Honda Insight as a nonhybrid Fabio Hybrids 158 01-12-2013 11:59 AM
Test: 200w electric bicycle efficiency = 1512 MPG equivalent MetroMPG Fossil Fuel Free 30 07-03-2008 12:25 PM



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com