Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > Fossil Fuel Free
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 06-04-2017, 01:18 AM   #1 (permalink)
Cyborg ECU
 
California98Civic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Coastal Southern California
Posts: 6,299

Black and Green - '98 Honda Civic DX Coupe
Team Honda
90 day: 66.42 mpg (US)

Black and Red - '00 Nashbar Custom built eBike
90 day: 3671.43 mpg (US)
Thanks: 2,373
Thanked 2,172 Times in 1,469 Posts
hub motor with transmission built in

I thought this NSK hub motor pretty interesting.
These could be so great for a parallel hybrid on a front wheel drive car, saving interior space. The problem with the motors I have seen (such as QS-motor) is that most cannot rev fast enough with no load. The best QS motor in this regard revs 1000 with no load: a car would be limited to maybe 70 mph without large tire/wheel combos. (I think I understand that correctly.)



I imagine like Proteon, Michelin "active wheel," and other motors, it may never go to market (at least it seems that way with these designs).

__________________
See my car's mod & maintenance thread and my electric bicycle's thread for ongoing projects. I will rebuild Black and Green over decades as parts die, until it becomes a different car of roughly the same shape and color. My minimum fuel economy goal is 55 mpg while averaging posted speed limits. I generally top 60 mpg. See also my Honda manual transmission specs thread.



  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 06-04-2017, 08:36 AM   #2 (permalink)
home of the odd vehicles
 
rmay635703's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Somewhere in WI
Posts: 3,874

Silver - '10 Chevy Cobalt XFE
Thanks: 495
Thanked 863 Times in 650 Posts
Hmm gear reduction via planetary?

Anyway RPMs are a hub motor issue but only at startup since you don't have enough torque to start the car rolling

Never heard of top speed as being an issue with hub motors,
  Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to rmay635703 For This Useful Post:
California98Civic (06-04-2017), NeilBlanchard (06-05-2017)
Old 06-04-2017, 10:25 AM   #3 (permalink)
Cyborg ECU
 
California98Civic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Coastal Southern California
Posts: 6,299

Black and Green - '98 Honda Civic DX Coupe
Team Honda
90 day: 66.42 mpg (US)

Black and Red - '00 Nashbar Custom built eBike
90 day: 3671.43 mpg (US)
Thanks: 2,373
Thanked 2,172 Times in 1,469 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmay635703 View Post
...Never heard of top speed as being an issue with hub motors,
I could be misunderstanding the specifications I found online. I am new to all of this. But I understood the max no load limit of 1000 rpms on QS Motors' products to mean not only that that's the maximum rpm it hits without any load on it but also that to exceed that in speed would damage the motor. Newbie mistake?

6000W V3 Electric Car Hub Motor(273 Model) - qs-motor.com
__________________
See my car's mod & maintenance thread and my electric bicycle's thread for ongoing projects. I will rebuild Black and Green over decades as parts die, until it becomes a different car of roughly the same shape and color. My minimum fuel economy goal is 55 mpg while averaging posted speed limits. I generally top 60 mpg. See also my Honda manual transmission specs thread.



  Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2017, 08:24 PM   #4 (permalink)
It's all about Diesel
 
cRiPpLe_rOoStEr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Porto Alegre, Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil
Posts: 12,548
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1,622 Times in 1,447 Posts
Since the direct reversibility and the ability to get rid of a transmission are the most highlighted advantages of hub-motors, I wouldn't hold my breath for this setup to become commercially available. But who knows...
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2017, 08:49 PM   #5 (permalink)
home of the odd vehicles
 
rmay635703's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Somewhere in WI
Posts: 3,874

Silver - '10 Chevy Cobalt XFE
Thanks: 495
Thanked 863 Times in 650 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr View Post
Since the direct reversibility and the ability to get rid of a transmission are the most highlighted advantages of hub-motors, I wouldn't hold my breath for this setup to become commercially available. But who knows...
Yes but no commercial hub motor has enough starting torque to move a car.

They are only used on bikes because the person can "push off" to get the thing moving.

So I suppose the worlds first usable automotive hub motor might sell.

Actually if the thing is reliable it would be the first to work on a car.

I think that is important, just have to wait for China to clone it so it's cheap enough to use for hybrid conversions
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2017, 10:53 PM   #6 (permalink)
Cyborg ECU
 
California98Civic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Coastal Southern California
Posts: 6,299

Black and Green - '98 Honda Civic DX Coupe
Team Honda
90 day: 66.42 mpg (US)

Black and Red - '00 Nashbar Custom built eBike
90 day: 3671.43 mpg (US)
Thanks: 2,373
Thanked 2,172 Times in 1,469 Posts
They don't seem to intend to bring the whole design to market, just some of the parts, such as a bearing they designed for it. I guess they realized--maybe from the beginning--the limitations you both are pointing out.
__________________
See my car's mod & maintenance thread and my electric bicycle's thread for ongoing projects. I will rebuild Black and Green over decades as parts die, until it becomes a different car of roughly the same shape and color. My minimum fuel economy goal is 55 mpg while averaging posted speed limits. I generally top 60 mpg. See also my Honda manual transmission specs thread.



  Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2017, 12:15 AM   #7 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
puddleglum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Red Deer, AB
Posts: 421

Rondo - '07 Kia Rondo EX
Last 3: 20.47 mpg (US)

Tinkertoy2 - '00 Toyota Echo base
Team Toyota
Last 3: 46.03 mpg (US)
Thanks: 39
Thanked 96 Times in 69 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by California98Civic View Post
I could be misunderstanding the specifications I found online. I am new to all of this. But I understood the max no load limit of 1000 rpms on QS Motors' products to mean not only that that's the maximum rpm it hits without any load on it but also that to exceed that in speed would damage the motor. Newbie mistake?

6000W V3 Electric Car Hub Motor(273 Model) - qs-motor.com
I would interpret the "1000 rpm max" to be the free run speed of the motor at 72 volts (rated voltage), not the max rpm that the motor can be spun up to without power. It's max safe rpm is probably a lot higher. It says it can be run at 144 volts which would double the rpm right there. there is still the issue of the anemic torque output though which would limit its use in a car unless you were going to fit 4 of them.

On the other hand, that NSK motor looks like it would be pretty cool and might work really well if you were rich enough to afford a couple.
__________________



Almost all my driving is done 1-5 miles at a time.
Best short trip: 2.4 l/100 km, 3.9 km
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2017, 12:23 PM   #8 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Saskatoon, canada
Posts: 1,488

Ford Prefect - '18 Ford F150 XLT XTR

Tess - '22 Tesla Y LR
Thanks: 749
Thanked 565 Times in 447 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by California98Civic View Post
They don't seem to intend to bring the whole design to market, just some of the parts, such as a bearing they designed for it. I guess they realized--maybe from the beginning--the limitations you both are pointing out.
From what I read, the bearing design is quite important.

Other hub motors that I have read about ... the motors wear out and fail (quite spectacularly) before the first set of tires is worn down.

There is not much clearance between the rotor and stator on a modern electric motor of any type - induction, PM, BDC. There is a lot of load on the bearings - since that is what is holding the car off the ground ... and taking the bumps since the motor is unsprung ... no suspension to smooth things out. Only one bearing on one side gives the hub motor a couple of additional challenges. After a few thousandths of an inch of wear on certain parts of the bearing ... some part of the stator meets some part of the rotor and *BAD* things happen.

From my limited understanding, the bicycle hub motors benefit from having support on both sides like a traditional motor. Both ends are connected to the bicycle frame. And bearing wear is not nearly such a big deal.
__________________
In THEORY there is no difference between Theory and Practice
In PRACTICE there IS!
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to thingstodo For This Useful Post:
California98Civic (06-05-2017)
Old 06-05-2017, 01:37 PM   #9 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
NeilBlanchard's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Maynard, MA Eaarth
Posts: 7,907

Mica Blue - '05 Scion xA RS 2.0
Team Toyota
90 day: 42.48 mpg (US)

Forest - '15 Nissan Leaf S
Team Nissan
90 day: 156.46 mpg (US)

Number 7 - '15 VW e-Golf SEL
TEAM VW AUDI Group
90 day: 155.81 mpg (US)
Thanks: 3,475
Thanked 2,950 Times in 1,844 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmay635703 View Post
Hmm gear reduction via planetary?

Anyway RPMs are a hub motor issue but only at startup since you don't have enough torque to start the car rolling

Never heard of top speed as being an issue with hub motors,
I think it is because they want to reduce the weight of the motor units, that requires the reduction gear. They avoid mentioning the reason that weight is the issue - unsprung weight is the main challenge of hub motors.

The obvious answer is to use tandem motors with half shafts. Then you don't have gear losses, and you have much lower unsprung weight, too.
__________________
Sincerely, Neil

http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2017, 06:20 PM   #10 (permalink)
Cyborg ECU
 
California98Civic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Coastal Southern California
Posts: 6,299

Black and Green - '98 Honda Civic DX Coupe
Team Honda
90 day: 66.42 mpg (US)

Black and Red - '00 Nashbar Custom built eBike
90 day: 3671.43 mpg (US)
Thanks: 2,373
Thanked 2,172 Times in 1,469 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by puddleglum View Post
I would interpret the "1000 rpm max" to be the free run speed of the motor at 72 volts (rated voltage), not the max rpm that the motor can be spun up to without power. It's max safe rpm is probably a lot higher. It says it can be run at 144 volts which would double the rpm right there. there is still the issue of the anemic torque output though which would limit its use in a car unless you were going to fit 4 of them...
This discussion got me reading further online (Endless-sphere site and such places). It seems a 30% buffer above max load is a common saftey design feature. But that means with tall tires on 15" wheels this hub motor would start to come apart at about 80-85mph MAX.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thingstodo View Post
... There is not much clearance between the rotor and stator on a modern electric motor of any type - induction, PM, BDC. There is a lot of load on the bearings - since that is what is holding the car off the ground ... and taking the bumps since the motor is unsprung ... no suspension to smooth things out. Only one bearing on one side gives the hub motor a couple of additional challenges. After a few thousandths of an inch of wear on certain parts of the bearing ... some part of the stator meets some part of the rotor and *BAD* things happen. ...
Yeeoww! Makes sense though. Seems like it is not the kind of thing to try on a daily driver, hahaha!

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard View Post
... The obvious answer is to use tandem motors with half shafts. Then you don't have gear losses, and you have much lower unsprung weight, too.
But that takes more space. A hub motor set up would save cargo space and it seems like an easier conversion. But the hub motors obviously need more development.

__________________
See my car's mod & maintenance thread and my electric bicycle's thread for ongoing projects. I will rebuild Black and Green over decades as parts die, until it becomes a different car of roughly the same shape and color. My minimum fuel economy goal is 55 mpg while averaging posted speed limits. I generally top 60 mpg. See also my Honda manual transmission specs thread.



  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread


Thread Tools




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com