Seems like electric is the end goal

[atomicradish]

Originally Posted by Solarpowered

I just don't see how the ICE can continue for much longer. Batteries are limited today, but what about next year? What about 5, or 10 years from now? The race is on and there will eventually be a battery that's superior to a gas tank.

There's only one way I could see the ic engine remaining relevant long term. If they can manage to convert more of it's heat into electricity. So if you had something that sticks to the exhaust manifold, that converts a lot of that heat into usable power. But wait! If you managed to do that, why not just make a hybrid instead?

What was that volkswagen car that got around 220 mpg? It just had a small 2cyl diesel generator that could charge up the battery. It was an electric car with a diesel generator on board to charge the battery. Or you could plug in of course, but in the event that you couldn't, well no problem just use your little generator. Pretty much kills range anxiety. But it makes the car a hybrid, that got about 220 mpg.

And of course they made something like 200 of them, and then erased them from existence iirc. Instead of making them commonplace. You know, cause it was the right thing to do.

Batteries will always remain limited by the elements of Earth (one reason why Elon is pushing for interstellar exploration). Electric vehicles were invented before gas vehicles in fact. It is telling that with tens of billions of dollars in investor money (its probably in the hundreds, tbh), BEVs are still only capable of pulling themselves and their passengers down the road. Hook up a load of any size and even a $100K + Ford Lightning won't be able to haul it for more than an hour or two.

Modern gasoline engines are more efficient in every way than BEVs. Too much potential energy is lost in transferring and storing an electric charge. They use power even when not in operation! It is incredibly disingenuous how even NHTSA and Fuel Economy.gov call them more efficient - nothing will be more efficient than an onboard power generator unless we redefine the word. Plus I'm really not enthused about giving Duke Energy even MORE money...

[redpoint5]

EVs are more capable of pulling heavy loads, not less. Modern trains are electric. You're confusing an electric vehicle with fuel source.

2nd paragraph is just entirely wrong. ICE are less efficient in every way. There is no scenario in which they convert the stored energy into mechanical energy more efficiently.

[freebeard]

Batteries will always remain limited by the elements of Earth (one reason why Elon is pushing for interstellar exploration).

So Mars is just part of a larger agenda? That's awesome.

They use power even when not in operation!

Explain just this part, pleez.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by freebeard

Explain just this part, pleez.

Modern EVs maintain thermal regulation even when not in operation, and also periodically top off the 12v battery from the traction battery.

In some extremely cold environments, a significant amount of extra juice can go into just maintaining battery temperature while it sits. To a lesser extent in extremely hot environments, some energy is spent cooling it.

The only possible way an EV would be less efficient than an ICE is if both sat for like a year, not being driven, in environmentally extreme conditions.

[atomicradish]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

EVs are more capable of pulling heavy loads, not less. Modern trains are electric. You're confusing an electric vehicle with fuel source.

2nd paragraph is just entirely wrong. ICE are less efficient in every way. There is no scenario in which they convert the stored energy into mechanical energy more efficiently.

No, you're the one who is wrong and I'm not at all confused - you just don't know how to read.

The overwhelming majority of locomotives are powered by diesel engines. Moreover, trains run on a fixed track, which means they can be more easily electrified WITHOUT BATTERIES. Still most electric trains to my knowledge are commuter and subway trains - NOT long haul cargo trains.

Electric motors produce tons of torque but in BEVs most of that is wasted hauling heavy batteries around. So yes, they are capable of hauling a heavy load. But here's where your lack of reading comprehension comes in: I qualified my statement by saying they couldn't go for more than an hour or two, which is indisputable fact. I specifically mentioned BEVs - those are battery electric vehicles in case you aren't aware. I'm not talking about some imaginary world where your BEV were somehow directly plugged into the grid.

[atomicradish]

Originally Posted by freebeard

So Mars is just part of a larger agenda? That's awesome.



Explain just this part, pleez.

No, I don't think I need to. I think you should be the one to explain what course of events in your life led you to not understanding how batteries work. Have you ever used a battery for anything, ever? Have you never attempted a cold start on a vehicle that hasn't been driven in a few weeks?

Once you let me know that information, I'll know whether to start the lesson at Pre-K or 1st grade.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by atomicradish

I qualified my statement by saying they couldn't go for more than an hour or two, which is indisputable fact. I specifically mentioned BEVs - those are battery electric vehicles in case you aren't aware. I'm not talking about some imaginary world where your BEV were somehow directly plugged into the grid.

You introduced both EV and BEV in the same paragraph, and my point was that the EV part was not the problem. The problem is the lack of energy density, and batteries aren't the only way to power an EV. There are hydrogen EVs, for instance.

Not mentioned, but probably the best solution would be PHEV or hybrid, especially for the long hauling scenarios.

You're still entirely wrong about your 2nd paragraph, which you provided no defense for.

[freebeard]

Once you let me know that information, I'll know whether to start the lesson at Pre-K or 1st grade.

I'm crushed. I think I'll go eat worms.

Compare redpoint5's simple explanation. I've never owned an electric vehicle, and with the short squeeze on Arcimoto it's looking less likely.

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by atomicradish

The overwhelming majority of locomotives are powered by diesel engines.

AFAIK nowadays a serial Diesel-electric setup is used, with the Diesel engine driving a generator to provide electric power for traction motors.

[Ecky]

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr

AFAIK nowadays a serial Diesel-electric setup is used, with the Diesel engine driving a generator to provide electric power for traction motors.

This is my understanding as well - most trains power the wheels via electric motors. They often use diesel generators to provide that electricity.