Is it time to re-visit solar hybrids?

[jakobnev]

No, it doesn't. 10 miles of range (optimistically) is like 1/4 gallon of petrol. If my driving needs were so little, I'd take an electric unicycle, bicycle, electric assist... and if my travel needs were greater, then PV would be insufficient.

Which part of hybrid did you not understand? (read post #1 again!)

Let me try to construct an example that even you can understand: If petrol was $600/l and you drove 20 miles per day, would you not understand the value of halving your consumption? (no mater how hugging close the gas stations were to you!)

Nobody is spending $135,000 on a Lightyear One because they can't afford petrol on their 5 mile commute.

I agree with this (see post #1) it makes no sense in a pure electric because you have to plug them in anyway!

Even then, they would be way ahead to put the PV in a fixed location and charge their vehicle at that location.

Unless you can't because you don't own the location where you park when the sun is out, or it's different locations every time.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by jakobnev

Which part of hybrid did you not understand? (read post #1 again!)

Let me try to construct an example that even you can understand: If petrol was $600/l and you drove 20 miles per day, would you not understand the value of halving your consumption? (no mater how hugging close the gas stations were to you!)

If petrol was $600/L, then it would be foolish to purchase a hybrid because you'd never put fuel in it. Better off spending that money on a pure EV.

Unless you can't because you don't own the location where you park when the sun is out, or it's different locations every time.

Then a plug-in isn't the right vehicle for the use case, which would be a regular hybrid. Your hypothetical situation where petrol is $600/L is not reality. The thread title is "Is it time to re-visit solar hybrids?", which it isn't, because petrol is cheap and ubiquitous, and PV sucks and is expensive.

[Isaac Zachary]

So I have two non-plug-in hybrids. What would it cost to make them plug-in-able?

What would it cost to trade them in for a plug-in-hybrid?

What would it cost to put a solar panel on the roof of one of them?

What kind of options could there be for adding a solar panel or panels?

What would be the pros and cons of each option?

When I had the Leaf I was driving way farther than what the car was intended to be used for, and quite regularly. I'd do a 150 mile round trip twice, sometimes three times a week in that 24kWh Leaf, with only one 6kW charging area to charge at along the whole route. I also took the Leaf on trips sometimes 700 miles long, with a lot of 120V charging.

I figured it would be easier if I had some sort of 6-7kW generator to take along, but if it ran on fosil fuel that would kind of be defeating the purpose of the vehicle. So I did the math to see if solar could be feasible, and in my opinion, it definitely could.

I had a couple ideas in mind. One, to get a bunch of PV panels and throw them in the trunk, then set them up whenever I needed to. Yes I'd need to use up the whole trunk space and likely the rear seat area as well. But since PV panels are usually quite thin, getting some 7kW worth in the car is possible. Looking to do it DIY costs could possibly be as low as $5,000, not that different than a gasoline powered 7kW generator.

Of course setting up a bajillion little panels didn't seem very convenient. So I thought about doing a trailer. However I figured I'd need an 8' x 40' trailer to get close to 6kW. It would also have to be able to tilt to get the full use of the sun.

So with that, I thought that it might be better to make a trailer with folding or sliding panels. That way the trailer could be made much smaller. For an example, a 6' x 18' trailer with three pieces would have the same square footage as the 8' x 40' trailer.

But towing a trailer wouldn't be convenient for everyday use. So what about above the car? The Leaf is nearly 6' wide and around 14' 6" long. Add a 3.5ft boat tail and the car would be 18' long. Of course adding any sort of object above the Leaf would hurt aerodynamics, so I thought maybe the PV array could be made as aerodynamic as possible. Maybe have it sit a couple feet off the top of the car for tilting purposes and make it curved following the contour you see in a wind tunnel. Of course the higher it sits the flatter it could be made and still be aerodynamic.

So the idea was a DIY solar array made of three very large panels that could slide out from each other making one big 18' x 18' panel when sitting. The hard part would be making it strong enough to keep from breaking off while driving down the road at highway speeds in the wind. There would definitely be other pros and cons too, like having shade all summer long and protection from frost in the winter. Also being able to run the AC off of pure solar power anywhere you go. But all in all, the fact that being able to carry around a Level 2 solar charging system is technically possible is pretty cool.

Well, I no longer have the Leaf and do doubt I'd ever go as far as to put an extendable 18' x 18' solar array on top of my car. But I do often wonder if doing around a 2kW raised solar panel that's the width and length of the car would have any benefit on one or both of my non-plug-in hybrids especially for slow paced, around town driving.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

So I have two non-plug-in hybrids. What would it cost to make them plug-in-able?

What would it cost to trade them in for a plug-in-hybrid?

What would it cost to put a solar panel on the roof of one of them?

What kind of options could there be for adding a solar panel or panels?

What would be the pros and cons of each option?

When I had the Leaf I was driving way farther than what the car was intended to be used for, and quite regularly. I'd do a 150 mile round trip twice, sometimes three times a week in that 24kWh Leaf, with only one 6kW charging area to charge at along the whole route. I also took the Leaf on trips sometimes 700 miles long, with a lot of 120V charging.

I figured it would be easier if I had some sort of 6-7kW generator to take along, but if it ran on fosil fuel that would kind of be defeating the purpose of the vehicle. So I did the math to see if solar could be feasible, and in my opinion, it definitely could.

I had a couple ideas in mind. One, to get a bunch of PV panels and throw them in the trunk, then set them up whenever I needed to. Yes I'd need to use up the whole trunk space and likely the rear seat area as well. But since PV panels are usually quite thin, getting some 7kW worth in the car is possible. Looking to do it DIY costs could possibly be as low as $5,000, not that different than a gasoline powered 7kW generator.

Of course setting up a bajillion little panels didn't seem very convenient. So I thought about doing a trailer. However I figured I'd need an 8' x 40' trailer to get close to 6kW. It would also have to be able to tilt to get the full use of the sun.

So with that, I thought that it might be better to make a trailer with folding or sliding panels. That way the trailer could be made much smaller. For an example, a 6' x 18' trailer with three pieces would have the same square footage as the 8' x 40' trailer.

But towing a trailer wouldn't be convenient for everyday use. So what about above the car? The Leaf is nearly 6' wide and around 14' 6" long. Add a 3.5ft boat tail and the car would be 18' long. Of course adding any sort of object above the Leaf would hurt aerodynamics, so I thought maybe the PV array could be made as aerodynamic as possible. Maybe have it sit a couple feet off the top of the car for tilting purposes and make it curved following the contour you see in a wind tunnel. Of course the higher it sits the flatter it could be made and still be aerodynamic.

So the idea was a DIY solar array made of three very large panels that could slide out from each other making one big 18' x 18' panel when sitting. The hard part would be making it strong enough to keep from breaking off while driving down the road at highway speeds in the wind. There would definitely be other pros and cons too, like having shade all summer long and protection from frost in the winter. Also being able to run the AC off of pure solar power anywhere you go. But all in all, the fact that being able to carry around a Level 2 solar charging system is technically possible is pretty cool.

Well, I no longer have the Leaf and do doubt I'd ever go as far as to put an extendable 18' x 18' solar array on top of my car. But I do often wonder if doing around a 2kW raised solar panel that's the width and length of the car would have any benefit on one or both of my non-plug-in hybrids especially for slow paced, around town driving.

Or, know 1 person who owns an ICE you can trade vehicles with for those longer drives. I know several people who do.

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

Or, know 1 person who owns an ICE you can trade vehicles with for those longer drives. I know several people who do.

When I bought the Leaf I didn't leave on such long trips but once every other month. Back then trading for or renting an ICEV, or planing ahead and taking it nice and slow (lots of camping spots with outlets) or even just taking the bus made sense. But then my circumstances suddenly changed and it came to be two or three times a week that I'd have to drive so far. And keeping someone else's car half the week or constantly renting was no longer practical, and the bus just wouldn't work either. I did make the Leaf work for a while until I got stranded in the middle of nowhere at -15°F with a dead battery and an angry wife. At that point I decided it wasn't worth keeping the Leaf and basically traded it for the Avalon Hybrid.

All I know now is that gasoline is about a dollar more a gallon than it was not that many months ago.

[redpoint5]

One of my friends owned a gen I Leaf and finally sold it and now drives a Subaru Crosstrek (or is it his wife's?).

Personally, I wouldn't own a short range EV as an only vehicle, especially in my younger years where short notice trips are more frequent and going places is more common. I wouldn't hesitate to own one as a 2nd vehicle in the household though.

I traded my Acura for my parent's 2012 Leaf when power was restored at my house before they got theirs back. Was fun for the week I had it. We both had viable transportation with that arrangement.

[freebeard]

What would it cost....What would be the pros and cons of each option?

To be successful, start with a highly efficient platform like the Aperta or FUV.

[jakobnev]

Then a plug-in isn't the right vehicle for the use case, which would be a regular hybrid.

Yes, a regular hybrid, aka non-plugin hybrid, like I said in post #1 and #9 and #12 and referred to again and again and again and again! I'm glad you finally got it! (Why you didn't understand this from post #9 is beyond me, it was directed directly towards you, and the relevant text was bolded)

because petrol is cheap and ubiquitous, and PV sucks and is expensive.

Petrol isn't cheap everywhere. And PV was expensive, but price has fallen by ~95% since the paper linked to in post #1 was written. $0.25/W is not expensive!

If petrol was $600/L, then it would be foolish to purchase a hybrid because you'd never put fuel in it. Better off spending that money on a pure EV.

The $600/l price example was used specifically in the context of making you understand that gas doesn't have to be unavailable, just undesirable. The number needed to be exaggerated because you were being resistant to normal numbers. At normal but high fuel prices, you wouldn't jump from a hybrid solution to EV if you couldn't plug in at home or work, because it would be inconvenient and you would be stuck paying high prices a fast chargers.

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by freebeard

To be successful, start with a highly efficient platform like the Aperta or FUV.

If they ever make a 4 door, 4 or 5 seat Aptera, I'll be the first to buy one.

Originally Posted by jakobnev

Petrol isn't cheap everywhere. And PV was expensive, but price has fallen by ~95% since the paper linked to in post #1 was written. $0.25/W is not expensive!

The future price of ICE fuel is also uncertain. Of course, so is electricity. But if you can make your own fuel for free after the initial cost, why not? And if you can take you fuel production kitty along on your vehicle, why not?

I was still going off $1-$2 per W. But 25¢? Like I said before, there have been people who have dragged along a $2,000 to $5,000 ICE generator for their EV. Why would spending a few hundred on a few solar panels be such a bad idea in comparison, especially when you can get more W per dollar (or pound, euro, peso, yen, etc.)?

I think anyone who's a nay-sayer it's just being jealous that they live in a mostly cloudy area. Where I live it's mostly sunny. Sure, trading in for a plug-in something and putting solar panels on the house's roof with a battery bank sounds good, but costs a lot more money even if you own your own home. Plus you have a lot more efficiency losses.

[AeroMcAeroFace]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

The future price of ICE fuel is also uncertain. Of course, so is electricity. But if you can make your own fuel for free after the initial cost, why not? And if you can take you fuel production kitty along on your vehicle, why not?

And there is also hydrogen cars, the mirai has a battery pack and a hydrogen fuel cell, if you add solar you could use less hydrogen on a short commute. So it isn't just fossil fuel hybrids that are a candidate for solar hybridisation. The practicality and economics of adding solar may not be for it. But most of us have cars when a motorbike would be more economical, and many other things similar that aren't economically justifiable, but we do it for our own comfort or fun.